The (Not Really So Very) Incorrupt Corpses

Roving relic hunter (and brand new Order member!) Elizabeth Harper is back to set us straight on the allegedly non-composing wunderkinds of Roman Catholicism- the incorrupt corpses.  See more from her recent adventures in Rome and Mexico City on All the Saints You Should Know.

Anna Maria Taigi

Anna Maria Taigi, psst not really incorrupt.  Photo by author.

People ask me about incorrupt corpses at parties. I think that’s probably why I’m an Order member now. After a drink or two, some nice, normal person will pull me aside and ask me about an incorrupt saint they saw on vacation. Usually they were touring some gorgeous old church in Europe when they noticed a musty old corpse on display in between the Caravaggios and gilded putti. The guidebook said it was an incorrupt saint whose body never decomposed, but it sure looked a little… off.

By the time they start describing the saint’s waxy skin or shriveled hands, I see them start to study me. They hesitate. They look for confirmation that I’m a skeptic before they go on. When they saw the body, they knew it was a holy thing but right now the only words coming to mind would also describe a sideshow freak. Fortunately they don’t need to worry about me. I’m not going to hit anyone’s knuckles with a ruler for a little irreverence. I’m excited people are interested in this stuff. But I do think that the impulse to judge incorruptibles as simply real or fake is a fear-based response. If there’s a sucker born every minute, no one really wants to think it might be them so people approach the glass casket automatically looking for a con job.

What I can tell you from my own experience is that it helps to leave that fear of being a sucker behind for a minute. I’m not saying that you have to be a true believer to understand incorruptibility, but it helps to approach these bodies knowing that the people who care for them and interact with them aren’t carnival barkers trying to put one over on you or chumps worshiping fakes straight out of Madame Tussaud’s.

Author and Paula Fassinetti.

Author and Paula Fassinetti.

One of the problems is that most people judge these bodies based on photos or one quick viewing. Not many people get a chance to talk to the people who know the bodies best. The picture at the top is St. Paula Frassinetti and I. My tour guide that day was a nun at the convent St. Paula founded. She was also the one who insisted we take this picture. (I’m normally anti-corpse-selfie.) She was very open about the history of the body so there wasn’t any denial about its current condition or past treatments. Yep, incorruptibles get treatments (like a corpse spa) and it’s no big secret.

More St. Paula

More St. Paula

Now obviously St. Paula doesn’t look incorrupt anymore. The period when she truly didn’t show any signs of decay ended shortly after she was moved to a new tomb in the convent’s chapel, about twenty-four years after her death. After that, her body began to deteriorate so acid was applied to help preserve her. That wound up marring her skin, but at least left St. Paula intact so the nuns could continue to display her.

As you’ll see, this is a pretty typical case of incorruptibility. My guide went on to tell me that one time the convent’s handyman moved the saint’s body and she was able to see that it was still flexible. Interestingly, “flexible” is probably the most common word associated with incorrupt corpses, not “lifelike”. At its core, incorruptibility only means that the body was left in a state that should have lead to putrification, or the liquefaction of guts, but didn’t. It happens without a scientific explanation so embalmed bodies, mummies, cases of human saponification, and bog bodies are out. There’s also partial incorruptibility, where some organs putrefy and others, usually the obviously symbolic ones, don’t- like St. Vincent de Paul’s heart.

The fact that incorruptibility hinges on putrification is particularly significant if you remember the putridarium. If rotting in the parish crypt was a big metaphor for punishment in purgatory, incorrupt saints seem to say, “Thanks but we don’t need any time in purgatory. We’re literally all good.” That’s why St. Paula’s order is so eager to preserve and display her body. Just like public ossuaries, incorrupt saints are seen as physical manifestations of souls in heaven. But like icons and relics, the bodies are only miraculous in the sense that miracles are attributed to their veneration. According to Church doctrine, incorruptibility alone can’t be counted as a miracle anymore. More sophisticated scientific explanations as well as mistakes found in hundreds of years of preservation records have forced the Church to reconsider which saints deserved the title in the first place. But even if it’s not miraculous, incorruptibility won’t seem to, well, rot away.

Francesca Romana, photo by author

Francesca Romana, photo by author

When a body is exhumed like St. Paula’s was, it’s usually because sainthood seems likely and the church wants to move the body to a more prominent place. During the move, clergy members inspect the remains to make sure they have the right person and maybe cut off a few piece to use as portable relics. This is how most incorruptibles are found. At the time of inspection, an incorrupt corpse is expected to be pliable and whole and look more or less like the day it was buried despite any damage to its shroud, burial clothes or coffin. A lot of times you’ll hear reports of a sweet floral smell coming from the corpse called the odor of sanctity. In some cases, the condition of the body is actually said to improve. The massive axe wound that killed St. Josaphat allegedly healed after his death. But what’s confusing is that even if the body is deemed incorrupt, the pristine state it’s in during the inspection usually isn’t permanent.

Catherine of Bologna, Catholic.org

Catherine of Bologna, Catholic.org

In the past, deterioration of incorrupt corpses could be attributed to exposing the body to bad air. According to a team of modern paleopathologists from the University of Pisa, that’s actually not too far from the truth. With the Vatican’s support, the team studied microenviornments in the former tombs of incorrupt corpses. They discovered that small differences in temperature, moisture, and construction techniques lead to some tombs producing naturally preserved bodies while others in the same church didn’t. Now you can debate God’s role in choosing which bodies went into which tombs before these differences were known, but I’m going to stick with the corpses. Once the incorrupt bodies were removed from these climates or if the climates changed, they deteriorated. This may have been what happened to St. Francesca Romana who was deemed incorrupt four months after her death in 1440 only to be found fully skeletonized in 1698 (though you still hear people refer to her as incorrupt).

Human interference factors into the decay of incorruptibles as well. St. Catherine of Bologna’s skin turned black from all the candles and oil lamps burning in her shrine. It’s also pretty common to hear about people trying to preserve a corpse’s incorrupt state, only to have it backfire. While St. Paula survived her acid bath in one piece, St. Julian Eymard’s body was accidentally destroyed by a similar treatment using carbolic acid. What’s left of him is now encased in a completely terrifying wax effigy that shows him wide-awake inside a casket.

Julian Eymard

Julian Eymard

The use of wax as an artist’s medium invites even more confusion and misunderstanding when it comes to the incorrupt. There are thousands of wax effigies in Catholic churches. Some have relics inside them, others don’t, and maybe a few hundred are fully incorrupt corpses wearing wax masks. (The Vatican doesn’t take roll call so no one knows how many incorrupt saints there are in the world.) The style of waxwork ranges from detailed portraits like the one on Blessed Anna Maria Taigi to more minimalist, monochromatic coverings. Unless you know who’s who, it can be impossible to tell effigies from bodies.

St. Celia

St. Celia

Pope Pius V

Pope Pius V

In other cases, the coverings are more obvious. You’ll see masks made of metal, like this one worn by Pope St. Pius V or saints entombed and represented by a sculpture showing how they were found, like this famous one of St. Cecelia. Conceptually, these covers are the same as wax masks. It’s just that wax mimics flesh so well that portraiture gets conflated with trickery particularly in churches that don’t have much information available.

But seriously, no one is trying to trick you or pretend that these bodies look like they just laid down for a nap. So go ahead, describe that incorrupt corpse as wax-covered or mummified. It’s cool. In fact, you might be surprised by how much skeptics would agree with the little old nuns who live with them, at least when it comes to the physical corpses.

 

Sources:

Christian Mummification: An Interpretative History of the Preservation of Saints, Martyrs and Others by Ken Jeremiah

The Mummy Congress: Science, Obsession, and the Everlasting Dead by Heather Pringle

The Incorruptibles by Joan Carroll Cruz

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  • Thomas Baird

    Thanks. This clears some things up for me.

  • Katie Sutton

    really cool. Thanks.

  • Anne

    Terrific post on a fascinating subject. Thank you!

  • Ashley Buchanan

    Extremely interesting and well written. More, please! 🙂

  • Helen

    I have been sent hither by Verity. I absolutely love incorruptibles (ahem… whether they actually are or not!). When I was about 8, I accidentally saw the body of St. Gerasimos in Kefalonia (he’s only view for the faithful, and not opened up for tourists, but I ended up seeing him by accident). I think because I went to a very plain chapel as a child that it’s made me more fascinated with Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) practice when it comes to church decoration and the idea of having a body in a church. Then again, my dad used to be a funeral director….!

    There’s a waxy-looking chap in the Oratory in Birmingham (which has a special pass from the Vatican to do the mass in Latin) and I’m assuming he’s not incorruptible and was just tarted up a bit with some wax to make him presentable. Even knowing that, when I went into the church and saw him lying there so peacefully, I took a moment to kneel down beside him and contemplate him. Yes, his waxy face is slipping a bit, but…. there was something so very calm and also rather humbling about it. Frustratingly, I have been unable to find out who he is or how much of “him” there is there. It’s not Cardinal Newman, though, because of course when they recently exhumed him, he had decomposed completely, and it didn’t look like him enough to just be a wax model of him. But who knows….

    • orthodoxis

      You’d have to be blind not to know it’s st philip neri but only a composite figure like the one in the much larger oratory in London , often mistakenly called Brompton oratory

    • Sankt Athanasion

      Just a correction: no priest needs a “special pass” to “do Mass in Latin”. Both the Pauline Missal and the Tridentine Missal are originally in Latin, usually Mass according to the Pauline Missal is said some parts in the vernacular and others in Latin, or all in the vernacular or all in Latin. The EF is always in Latin though. As a matter of fact, each nation’s bishops had to get permissions for the vernacular, since the Latin text is the standard.

  • Malpracticed

    There’s a great, fairly recent (1952) documented case out of LA. See here and Cntrl +F ‘Incorruptibility’:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramahansa_Yogananda#Claims_of_bodily_incorruptibility

  • AliciaAMG

    ‘Led’ not ‘lead’. Lead is a metal or the present tense form of the verb, with a long E sound. Led is the past tense form of the verb. The verb does NOT act like read, read (past tense). Otherwise, a fascinating article.

  • Avalon

    Anyone know if there are any incorrupt bodies for viewing in Madrid?

    • José María

      Hi there:

      I am from Madrid but live here in the USA the majority of the year, and, that I know of, there are no incorruptibles in Madrid. One of the most famous ones is the patron saint of Sevilla, St. Fernando. He can be found in the cathedral, but he is only exhibited on his feast day, May 30.

  • FrTerrence

    The body of Sr. Catherine of Bologna looks a lot better than some of the Merciless Nun’s….Whoops (Freudian slip), I mean Sister’s of Mercy I had as teachers in elementary school. This is a splendid piece Elizabeth! Well done. These “incorruptibles” have always fascinated me but the more I learn about their remains the more I realize the great preservation lengths that are taken by caretakers to keep them looking like this. My question is “of all the incorruptibles you are aware of, is there any specific one that really seems miraculous or rather has not been tampered with by special preservatives and chemicals?” Thanks.

    • banjun

      can the author answer this please?

      • iisan7

        During the Soviet period, many efforts were made to discredit the ‘incorrupt relics’… many of which were written about during the 1920s and onwards. I would suggest for example here: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/ocrc/2009/06/veneration-of-icons-and-relics/

        Skip the top– start under the section headed, “FURTHER TESTIMONIES CONCERNING THE INCORRUPT RELICS OF THE SAINTS”.

  • Miss P

    I read _Scent_ by Annick LeGuerer some years ago and it had a section on the scent of sanctity. It discussed the presence of acetone in the blood as responsible for that agreeable floral odor described as “sanctified.” Acetone in the blood is a result of diabetes. The diabetic body makes it in abnormal mass quantities. (This finding is what led to the Church saying that the incorruptible body could no longer be the only test of sanctity.) The book said St. Teresa of Avila was a confirmed diabetic (but I haven’t read that info anywhere else). The book also went into how the mind (in ecstatic state) could change the blood alcohol composition so that was another way for saints to have the scent of sanctity. It was really interesting to think that our incorruptibles/saints were diabetics.

    • Ranger Joe

      As a sweet smelling diabetic…I approve of this message.

  • Awesome post. Thank you.

  • Daniel Cristancho

    This article was interesting and helped answer a lot of questions, but I fail to see any biblical reason to fawn over the dead. The bible treats death as foreign and an unwanted result of sin. God is the God of the living. There are no examples of Christ or the Apostles venerating the dead. Christ did not go about preserving corpses but was in the business of actually bringing them back to life. In the end, a beautiful corpse is as useless as rotting one. Without life, the human being is nothing. If God was truly involved in this, there would be resurrection, not preservation.

    • Adam Kosterski

      There’s no other way to say it except – You’re wrong.
      http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/is-veneration-of-relics-condemned-by-the-bible

      You might start by saying that although the ancient Christian practice of
      venerating the relics of saints, especially martyrs, can be abused in a
      superstitious way by some who misunderstand the purpose of relics, it is
      not itself in any way superstitious.

      A relic is an object, such as a piece of clothing or, more commonly, a
      piece of bone from a saint’s body, which has spiritual value because it
      belonged to one of God’s saints. The Bible records many accounts of the
      value of relics and even episodes of miraculous events connected with
      them. “People brought to [Jesus] all who were sick and begged him that
      they might only touch the tassel on his cloak, and as many as touched it
      were healed” (Mt 14:35-36; cf. Mk 6:56; Lk 8:43-44). It was not
      uncommon for ordinary objects, like the tassel on the Lord’s cloak, to
      have miraculous characteristics. Look also at Acts 5:15, where even
      Peter’s shadow could cause miraculous healings.

      Regarding the relics of saints, especially martyrs (about whom the
      Bible says, “Precious in the eyes of the Lord is the death of his holy
      ones” [Ps 116:15]), look at 2 Kings 13:21:

      Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of
      Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a
      man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the
      dead man into the grave of Elisha and everyone went off. But when the
      man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and
      rose to his feet

      Here also FYI

      http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/article/the-ancient-christian-practice-of-venerating-relics-4825679224897536

      God bless, A

      • Dan Cristancho

        You said, “The Bible records many accounts of the
        value of relics and even episodes of miraculous events connected with
        them” I’m sorry but you are mistaken. I have no problem with the miracles as they are recorded in scripture, but the issue is dead bodies and relics. Christ and Peter were very much alive when they did those miracles. A relic is some article of a dead person. The bible is void of any example of anyone adoring or venerating Pete’s body parts or Christ’s cloak after their deaths. The record is clear, there is NO example of anyone venerating or adoring anything from anyone dead in scripture.

        • Adam Kosterski

          Dear Daniel,

          Thank you for your reply. Maybe if you take some time to read the second link I gave you as well as the following
          http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12734a.htm

          http://www.catholic.com/tracts/relics

          http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/RELICS.HTM

          it might go some way in clearing up what I was trying to communicate.
          God bless, A

          • Dan Cristancho

            “We may add that this miracle as well as the veneration shown to the bones of Joseph (see Exodus 13:19 and Joshua 24:32) only gain additional force from their apparent contradiction to the ceremonial laws against defilement, of which we read in Numbers 19:11-22.” This is another misuse of scripture. Moving the bones of Joseph was not an act of veneration but was part of a request Joseph made before his death Gen 50:24, 25. They were fulfilling a man’s last wish. Certainly, the scriptures is void of anybody venerating or gaining graces by kissing or adoring the bones of Joseph. They were not placed in a glass box for people to look at and venerate. They were simply buried in another place. The first link you gave me, was loaded with writings of the church fathers and saints and only had 4 bible examples, each misapplied (Paul’s hankie, Elisha’s bones, Peter’s shadow and Joseph’s bones). I believe the account of Paul’s handkerchief and Peter’s shadow healing but they were alive at the time. It in no way is an example for us to take dead people’s articles or body parts and adore or venerate them. I understand what you’re trying to say, bro. You have plenty of Papal and Catholic traditional support. The only thing you lack is biblical support.

          • CK

            Relics have been part of Christian life from the beginning. If you think bible alone, you need to first identify using written scripture alone, what books belong in the the bible. You don’t have the bible without sacred tradition. As you are researching who decided what belonged in the cannon take note of what they believed and how they worshipped.

          • Dan Cristancho

            Thus is a common point of contention. Who did decide what went into scriptures? The bible states it was the Jews that were given the oracles of God, not the papacy. We have the old testament from the Jewish old testament (Christ identified it as Moses, the law and the prophets) and the New Testament had already been written and identified by the original Jewish Apostles after the death of John. The Roman church merely gathered what had already been approved and placed it in one book. 66 books, one bible.

          • MurphsLaw

            And king James had it INTERPRETED so the Protestants could be on their way, saying they are right everyone else is wrong. How foolish Jesus would think this divisiveness is.
            King James and his “Scholars” were MEN…WITH NO DIVINITY…and certainly looking for the easiest ANTI-Vatican path. Censorship and omission ruled that day.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            “Scholars” were MEN…WITH NO DIVINITY”

            Say what? What are you implying, that the pope IS divine? You don’t need to be divine to understand scripture. The bible is very clear, THE HOLY SPIRIT LEADS TO ALL TRUTH. He is the designated agent to lead men to truth, not the pope. According to Christ Himself, God gives the Holy Spirit freely to all those who ask Him for it. That hardly restricts the Holy Spirit to the Papacy alone.

          • Dan Cristancho

            I beg to differ. Relics have always been part of Papal tradition. There are no accounts of relic veneration in scripture, old or new Testament. By relics, I understand you to mean something from a dead saint.

          • Dan Cristancho

            I read the first two links you gave me. Again, there is a misuse of the bible stories of Joseph and the death of Christ. I don’t know what the proper care of Christ’s body has to do with venerating the dead. What they did was what was done for all great men when they died. Christ was not long to be in the grave. As for the story of Joseph, again, they were not moving his bone so they could encase them and venerate them in order to obtain graces. They were only fulfilling a vow that Joseph made them take before his death. Gen 50:24, 25. His bones were simply buried elsewhere. I get the idea of showing respect for your loved one’s deceased body. That’s appropriate. What puzzles me is how these examples in the bible set the example for taking a person’s corpse or pieces there of, that have been in the ground for several years and encasing them in glass cases so people can come and pray and receive graces from them. That’s not biblical. How ghastly when you hear of people taking the bodies of ‘saints’ and chopping up the bones and distributing them amongst several parishes as, again, another way to obtain miracles and graces. Please show me one example of such creepy devotion in scripture. The story of Elisha’s bones does NOT have the following background: “They took Elisha’s body and took pieces of his bones and distributed them all over Israel so that God might do miracles or grace could be obtained in their veneration.” Elisha had simply been buried, like all other Israelites and by accident the body of the man, when it was dropped in a panic, happened to touch Elisha’s bones and he was resurrected. It was not planned, people did NOT bring the dead man’s body to touch the bones of Elisha in hopes of a miracle. To say that’s what the story is implying is to insert something that’s not there.

          • horseradish

            Again. Scripture isn’t everything

          • mr. book

            I think Acts 19:12 sheds a little light here:

            “so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to
            the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left
            them.”

            This was Paul’s ministry, not Jesus himself, but it is an example of the healing powers of objects in the Bible. From here you can see how other saints’ objects might be thought to have special healing powers.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            I believe the account of Paul’s handkerchief and Peter’s shadow healing but they were very much alive at the time. It in no way instructs us to take dead people’s articles or body parts and adore or venerate them in hopes of miracles or grace.

          • eon

            “I believe the account of Paul’s handkerchief and Peter’s shadow healing but they were very much alive at the time.”

            Well, maybe you should check your beliefs then: is it Jesus Christ’s merits that work through Paul’s handkerchief in order to cure, or is it the fact the Paul is alive that cures? If you really believe that it is God’s power only that cures so give me one good reason why should it matter if God wants to use a dead man as a tool for someone else’s salvation? Paul has no importance whatsoever. Being alive or dead has no importance. The only thing that matter is faith and God’s will. If God wants it and you believe, then miracles can happen.

            Seriously, It seems to me that you are confused about how salvation works.

          • Dan C.

            ” If you really believe that it is God’s power only that cures so give me one good reason why should it matter if God wants to use a dead man as a tool for someone else’s salvation?”

            God does not use the dead for anything. Our God is a God of the living. Death is unclean and offensive to God. It is contrary to His very nature. I totally disagree with there being no importance between being alive and being dead. The dead have not been chosen to intercede or spread the gospel. It is the living that do such things. The scriptures verify this.

            “is it Jesus Christ’s merits that work through Paul’s handkerchief in order to cure,”

            You are correct, it is the merits of Christ’s blood and righteousness that cure, not Paul or the kerchief. The apostles knew this. And yet, there is no example in all of scripture, both Old and New Testament that gives example or even hints that they ever took relics or dead body parts and encased them in golden boxes for people to adore and venerate to gain graces. That is a pagan practice. Buddhists, Animists, headhunters and Muslims do the same thing.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            “it is an example of the healing powers of objects in the Bible”

            No, friend, it’s an example of the healing power of Christ in the bible. We never read that Paul’s handkerchief was later preserved and placed in a golden box to be adored and venerated to obtain graces or miracles.

          • Dan Cristancho

            I get what you’re trying to say, bro. You certainly have lots of Catholic saints, traditions and church fathers backing you up. The only thing you’re lacking is biblical support.

          • horseradish

            The The Bible isn’t everything

          • Dan Cristancho

            It is if you want to be saved. It is impossible to please God without following its teachings.

        • sunsetter

          Not to harp on about it, but let’s consider: when Elisha struck the water of river Jordan with the cloak of Prophet Elijah , the river divided into two parts. (2 Kings 2:14). Seems to meet all your conditions.

          Earthly bodies die, but souls may continue to exist in heaven. Why should prayers for/to the dead– to God for forgiveness of their sins, and even requests to those in heaven to pray on our behalf, be troubling?

          Surely you see the distinction between this and ancestor worship. Nobody worships relics, or considers them magic. They are mementos which strengthen and focus our faith, like a photo makes you feel closer to your family. Wonders may be worked through them but not by them.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            First of all, Elisha was not dead, therefore, his cloak would hardly qualify as a relic. Secondly, the cloak miracle was in response to Elisha’s prayer ‘Where is the God of Elijah?’. The cloak is never mentioned again and we have no biblical history that after Elisha’s death, Israel put the cloak in a jewel encrusted box and venerated it. As for the ‘souls in heaven’, the idea that heaven is full of disembodied spirits of dead people or ghosts, is absurd beyond reason. Angels are spirit by nature, but man is NOT. Man is flesh and blood. That is our natural state. The bible over and over tells us that God is the God of the living, that God detests death and considers it unclean. If there are any humans in heaven, we know that Moses, Enoch, Elijah and our Savior, Jesus are, they are in glorified flesh and blood fashion. Only the living live in heaven.

          • sunsetter

            The cloak belonged to Elijah, who was gone from the earth. So you might say, he was not dead, that’s fair, but the cloak of a man who is gone from the earth certainly is a relic.

            Whatever the nature of man in heaven– I have not claimed he is a spirit– my point is that veneration is not contradictory to scripture. When it is not idolatry or morbid worship, it is at worst harmless, and at best it may be a great inspiration. It is why we visit a museum to be close to the past. Are you insisting that when a family member dies, we tear up their photograph and never think of them again? Where is that in scripture?

          • Brandon “Doc” Corcoran

            Dan,
            I am not catholic but I was raised by my Grandmother who was. To understand the bible, you would have to understand god. In Job it states that god cannot be understood, HOWEVER that does not mean we do not understand the traits he has shown to us. He is gracious and understanding of his creations. When we lose a loved one, we have a viewing of their body. For some to see their loved one dead and in a casket is a final sense of closure that they are truly dead. God understands this, He understands that we as human beings sometimes need to have closure and a time to mourn for the dead. My grandma died December 6th 2014, I gave the eulogy and sang at the funeral. At 17 I never thought I’d be giving the eulogy for my grandmother or singing at her funeral. Our family believed she’d outlast all of us. The body of the deceased is purely getting us to embrace the fact that the life is gone in that person and that mourning can now begin. Mourning is considered to be a healthy feeling. Primal instinct craves that goodbye to our loved one and some people even keep clothing that the deceased wore in life. My mom kept a few of my Grandma’s shirts because they still smelled like her. We keep things like that because memory at that point is all we have left and if we don’t do this the memories of them slowly fade until they are forgotten. If this explanation doesn’t cut it for you than how about this one, The church likes to preserve dead people for historical purposes. History is a huge part of Catholicism. Saint Peter was the first Pope of Rome. He was buried after being executed on Vatican Hill. History of the Saint’s includes their lives and works performed. I have seen one incorrupt Saint holding the record f his life and the works he accomplished. Bodies of the saints are kept because they, like peter and the rest of the disciples, received Christ’s power to perform miracles. The bodies of the Saint’s, even dead, are said to perform miracles. When Christ died his disciples could use Jesus’ name and cure people of maladies and some might say that even up in heaven the holy spirit still works through those bodies. To understand what a saint is and why they are elevated to that status one must define a Saint. I have always heard that a Saint is someone who has had the Beatific vision. So the first Saints would be The Angels of heaven such as St. Michael, St. Gabriel and St. Raphael etc. Through their names you invoke a miracle, they intercede (Talk with God or Jesus) on our behalf and if approval is given BAM you have a miracle. That there is the easiest explanation I can give on the importance of the bodies of Saint’s, they are worshipped to some degree by Catholics and even Non-Catholics like me. There are some incorruptible Saints whose oils, that are filled with the odor of sanctity, are sold and cause miracles. Another reason to keep the body.
            End
            P.s. For the record I am a Pagan, I taught theology at one time for a few years and so I learned some stuff. don’t discredit the words up there just because I am Pagan, there are historic records that states the points I have said above and scientific studies on our primal instincts. Also for those Christians viewing this, a word to the wise: Not all Christian traditions are Christian. The incensing of the altar, the taking of communion, even Easter……These aren’t your traditions but pagan traditions, You can do research on the topic and find out that a lot of Christian tradition stems from paganism. There is still no popular consensus on whether the Father of Christianity, Emperor Constantine the Great, was a lifelong pagan until he was baptized on his deathbed or not. Either way he made Christian feasts and Holidays fall on certain days so as Pagans who converted wouldn’t have to change much of their living besides having a monotheistic view instead of polytheistic view. Also The biblical texts are not all accurate as they are rough translation from the Hebrew and Islamic languages they were written in. Also The bible has been rewritten multiple different times and didn’t arrive facsimile from heaven. Humans, which god in the bible has stated are flawed, where given visions by god and interpreted them into what they thought they saw. Its like a painting You and I could look at a painting and get 2 totally different meanings from it.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Primal instinct craves that goodbye to our loved one and some people even keep clothing that the deceased wore in life.

            I have no quarrel with mourning for our deceased loved ones. That is normal and an acceptable practice in scripture. We have examples of people mourning the dead. What I don’t see in scripture is having bones and skulls and other parts of bodies displayed for the purposes, not of remembering them, but of obtaining graces and miracles. That kind of example is absolutely absent from scripture. I’m sure you don’t anyone who has a deceased preserved relative in their house,do you? It’s rather odd, actually. We just don’t do that.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            When Christ died his disciples could use Jesus’ name and cure people of maladies and some might say that even up in heaven the holy spirit still works through those bodies.

            I disagree. No such miracles were performed while Christ was dead. The name of Christ used in healing in scripture was the name of a LIVING Christ, not a dead one. No member of the Godhead uses dead bodies to bring about blessings. We are never commanded or given an example of someone digging up body parts of some deceased ‘saint’ and bowing before those remains or praying to those remains for blessings, miralces or graces. You can search from Genesis to Revelation and it’s just not there.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Through their names you invoke a miracle, they intercede (Talk with God or Jesus) on our behalf and if approval is given BAM you have a miracle.

            This is not biblical. The bible clearly states that if we ask in the name of Jesus, miracles can happen, but it never endorses any other name as having that kind of power. The bible speaks of only ONE mediator, between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. No other mediators between God and man are mentioned. The bible is void of any text that states we need a mediator between us and Christ. That is just utter nonsense. Christ is human like us and He understands us without the need of some other human to intercede for us. The Papacy has invented this fantastical ‘sacred lobby’ that somehow is needed so that we can get God to listen to our prayers and petitions. The concept is that God couldn’t be bothered with lowly simple human beings but must be approached by some elevated being called a ‘saint’ (A status which only the Papacy can appoint) before He will even consider any request. That’s absurd and utterly void of biblical foundation. We are admonished to ‘boldly’ approach the throne of grace on our own, without any mention of Mary or the saints as our go-betweens.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Not all Christian traditions are Christian.

            Very wise advise. A ‘tradition’ can only be called Christian if it is clearly backed by scripture. The only traditions that back the adoration of bones and preserved corpses are those of pagans. There are a litany of heathen religions that practice this disturbing and abominable form of worship, but you will not find it in the bible. God is the God of the living, not the dead.

          • iisan7

            adoration. very telling that you use this specific language. From https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/onbehalfofall/orthodox-response-john-calvin-icons-icons-idolatry/

            Christian distinction between veneration and adoration—perhaps most famously explained at the Second Council of Nicaea (A.D. 787). Stated briefly, veneration or honor can be paid to honorable men (for example, kings and royalty, along with clergy), angels, and even relics or the Cross, while adoration (λατρεία) is given to God alone.

            While exposited more fully at the Seventh Ecumenical Council, this distinction is thoroughly biblical. The scriptures provide numerous examples where a person or object is venerated, and without it being mistaken as idolatry (or the worship due God alone): Leah and her children, along with Rachael and Joseph (Gen. 33:7); Absalom before the king (2 Sam./Kings 25:23); a woman before a man (1 Sam./Kings 25:23); a woman before a prophet (2/4 Kings 4:37); and even priests before the ark of the covenant, which was adorned with statues of the cherubim (Psalm 98/99:5)!

            And I should add, it seems a denial of both human reason and experience to claim the honor paid to relics or images does not pass along to their prototypes. When Americans salute their flag, they are not honoring cloth and ink. When a lonely wife kisses a photo of her husband while he’s away on business, she is not honoring a piece of paper (or cell phone screen). When a child hugs close to them a gift from their recently deceased grandparent, they are honoring the giver, not the gift itself. Veneration is all around us, and no one mistakes it for the worship of idols.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Christian distinction between veneration and adoration—

            Every example you gave in scripture is obvious respect for a LIVING being. Showing respect for kings, parents and prophets is not prohibited. It has nothing to do with venerating the dead or images. Psalms 98 and 99:5 have nothing to do with priests venerating the ark. I fail to see why you even mentioned them. No one saw the ark except the High Priest and then only once a year. He entered with obvious respect and reverence because he would be entering into the presence of the Shekinah, the actual presence of God, not because of the cherubim on the ark.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            When Americans salute their flag, they are not honoring cloth and ink. When a lonely wife kisses a photo of her husband

            Again, while I certainly pay respect to the US flag and I reminisce over my memories of my deceased grandfather, at no time do I offer up prayers to the flag or my deceased grandfather in hopes of having them intercede for me with Christ to obtain graces. This is the issue. Using these relics and saints to obtain graces for myself or deceased relatives in purgatory. I don’t even see why you bring up the issue of ‘remembering family’. You have never known or interacted with any of the saints you pray to. Your comparison is not valid.

          • Stanley J. Harris

            Constantine was NEVER the “father of Christianity”. Although he probably saw himself as such, the Church was led by the successors of the Apostles who had been appointed by Christ. Most practices and traditions of the Church were already in place long before Constantine. We have writings of the Apostolic father still in existence to prove it. The Divinity of Christ is proclaimed in Scripture. The Holy Trinity also, although the word “trinity” is not used.
            Modern “Pagan” as well as Wicca stems from the invention of Alex Gardiner in 1927.an eccentric Englishman. Fallen away Christians who never understood their faith anyway loved the pretense of have older roots than Christianity; but the thing is an illusion. Not one of these “Pagans” can reconstruct correctly the old “Mysteries” of Isis or Demeter, Osiris etc.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            but I am certain that Elisha took Elijah’s mantle after he ascended or vanished.

            You are correct here. He did. We never hear of the cloak again. It bears no importance in Elisha’s work.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Are you insisting that when a family member dies, we tear up their photograph and never think of them again? Where is that in scripture? Shall we not visit a museum to see a historical artifact, and briefly feel closer to the events?

            No one is saying that. Even Paul acknowledges the normalcy of grieving, just that we ‘should not grieve as those who have no hope’. But when I remember my deceased grandmother, I don’t send up prayers and petitions for grace. That goes beyond remembering grandma and is NOT IN SCRIPTURE. Anyway, we’re not talking about deceased family members but strangers. People, the Catholics of today, have never met. They bow before them or their images, pray to them and ask for graces. There is neither example nor instruction on such practices in all of the bible. It’s a pagan practice that you see in all heathen religions such as Buddhists, Hindus, native Americans and Animists, just to name a few.

          • iisan7

            Let’s set aside the question of life after death entirely, and talk only about relics. It was my mistake to bring up prayers/intercessions for/to the dead– definitely a different subject. We all know so little– and I in particular– about the subject that I’d rather talk about something easier.

            In scripture, there are many accounts of regard for the dead, and miracles done by their live and dead bodies or personal effects–their relics. Yet you’re correct that there isn’t suggestion that their relics were venerated. In the NT, miracles are often performed through tangible objects (Peter’s shadow, Paul’s aprons and handkerchiefs; Christ’s garments), but you are correct that these effects where always observed while their originator was alive (although not always in their presence).

            In the OT, you grant that miracles are worked through relics, but since nobody held on to them none of it counts: the Ark and the bronze serpent; Elijah’s mantle and Elisha’s bones; David exclaims the virtues of God’s dead saints in the psalms, Joseph’s bones transported after his death– but to you these things weren’t ‘dwelt on’ or they were only ‘mentioned once and then forgotten’ — not a convincing argument to me. If none of these were important because they weren’t mentioned twice, why mention them even once? I happened to find a second mention in the OT of the miracle worked by Elisha’s relics: “No word could overcome him, and after his death his body prophesied. He did wonders in his life, and at his death were his works marvelous” (Sirach 48:13-14). Not a physical veneration, but a powerful memory.

            I keep thinking about an essay by a presbyter named Demidov: “Why were these mystical and inexplicable events necessary? Why purpose did the apostles pursue by using kerchiefs and aprons when they performed miraculous signs? Would it not have been sufficient to utter a single sermon about Jesus Christ, His teaching, miracles and Resurrection? Why did the apostles consider special signs, outside the realm of ordinary life, necessary for the bestowal of healing upon those that suffered from bodily infirmities?” I don’t know, but we should take note.

            … In the end I am forced to agree: veneration of relics is not attested in the NT, and perhaps only very weakly in the OT; thus, a Christianity coming from scripture alone would very likely not emphasize it, and perhaps not even tolerate it, depending on what form it took. Veneration of the dead is not really in harmony with the NT. Mainly it is out of harmony with Paul. Perhaps he was adding extra emphasis in his epistles to the pagans because it was what they needed; perhaps he would reformulate his epistles to push our materialistic, sola scriptura Christianity of today in the other direction that (I feel) is needed. But that is my personal view, and I find merit in your arguments about the NT. I am coming more over the view that one’s view of relics is not informed solely by scripture, but very much dependent on one’s attitude towards church tradition and founders.

            Most of them were gentiles and their attitudes might have been influenced by their own pre-Christian traditions– but three points on that. First, this was largely Paul’s doing: by refuting the Judaizers so vehemently, he personally ensured that the Church would be strongly influenced by Gentiles. Second, we believe that God guides the canonical views of the church, so that something which has survived so long in the church deserves special attention rather than rejection out-of-hand. Finally, the veneration of relics appears so early in the Church’s history that it is very problematic to reject it: doing so is like saying, basically, that “true” Christianity had died out within 200 years of its founding. Perhaps that’s your view– OK, many Protestants might feel that way. I don’t think Luther saw it that way, however, and I can’t agree either. Indeed– what a strange concept, since the scripture did not come from nothing… you’re denying the validity of the very church elders which decided your scriptural canon!

            Athanasius was 4th century… was the church already so corrupt in the 4th century, that Jerome could also write: “Still we honor the relics of the martyrs, that we may adore Him whose martyrs they are. We honor the servants that their honor may be reflected upon their Lord who Himself says: ‘he that receiveth you receiveth me.’ ” Or Chrysostom: “God left us the relics of the Saints wishing to guide us in the same zeal they had.” Many house churches, but also so many churches built on sites of martyrdom or over graves… what are we to make of this?

            It hinges on how much you’re willing to accept someone else’s view of scripture over your own: I don’t expect that I can convince anyone to do that– it’s hard to accept authority: it’s considered lazy, uncritical, and backwards… and thus is being destroyed the community of Christians. On this admittedly tangential matter, I highly recommend the pamphlet, “Which Came First: The Church or the New Testament?” http://www.protomartyr.org/first.html

          • Daniel Cristancho

            but to you these things weren’t ‘dwelt on’ or they were only ‘mentioned once and then forgotten’ — not a convincing argument to me.

            It is a convincing argument to me. The bible over and over repeats what is essential to salvation. The bones of Joseph weren’t taken from Egypt because Israel was going to venerate them, but because it was his request before his death. Gen 50:25 They were merely following the wishes of the Patriarch. We are told clearly that when they arrived in Shechem, that Josephs’ bones were BURIED. They were not placed in some sacred box for veneration. As for the bones of Elisha, the bible is very clear. The bones of Elisha happened to be exposed, not because they were digging them up to venerate them, but because as they were digging a grave for a dead man they happened to come upon his bones, as they were going to bury the man, they were attacked by enemies and they dropped the body on Elisha’s bones and ran for their lives. When the man’s body fell on Elisha’s bones, it was brought back to life. No where does the bible state that later, the bones of Elisha were dug up, placed in a golden box and venerated in Israel.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            virtues of God’s dead saints in the psalms,

            No, bro. David states precious is the ‘death’ of God’s saints in His eyes, not the dead bodies. God has no dealings with the dead. He is the God of the living. Death was considered unclean and having touched a body, you could not approach the temple until you had been ‘purified’. How much more reprehensible, placing the bones or skulls of some dead ‘saint’ in God’s holy temple to be adored as part of worship toward’s God.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Or Chrysostom: “God left us the relics of the Saints wishing to guide us in the same zeal they had.” Many house churches, but also so many churches built on sites of martyrdom or over graves… what are we to make of this?

            This is an incredibly pagan practice. No where in scripture is a blessing pronounced on or are Christians admonished to build God’s holy temple over tombs of saints. Pagans do it and have been doing it since the fall of man. Chrysostom is desperately confused. The scriptures are void of such examples.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Finally, the veneration of relics appears so early in the Church’s history that it is very problematic to reject it:

            Really? It is void where it counts, in infallible scripture. The early church written of in Acts had no such practices. This pagan practice had to have crept into the church after the death of John. All these church fathers are not infallible, Holy Spirit inspired scripture.

          • Stanley J. Harris

            The Holy Spirit also inspired people, and continues to do so today.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            That is true, but not on the same level as the bible writers. Since the death of John, no one has been given the gift of writing ‘God breathed’ Holy Spirit authored scripture. All other teachings and writings after John are to be subject to the Word of God. That means that tradition and the writings of the church fathers must be in compliance with the clear teaching of scripture.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Whatever the nature of man in heaven– I have not claimed he is a spirit-

            That’s true. You haven’t. I was speaking to the general belief that ‘grandma is now in heaven with Jesus’ kind of mind set. This is not biblical. In what form could grandma be except in spirit form, which means she is still dead. She’s a ghost. There are no ghosts in heaven. If the body is here in the grave, then the supposed spirit is all that’s in heaven. That is not how God operates. He resurrects. He gives life. There are no ghosts floating around in the presence of God today or ever. That’s why we have been promised over and over again, a resurrection. That’s a real, living human being. Flesh, bone, blood and consciousness.

          • Stanley J. Harris

            You better check Revelation; Plenty of instances of the Martyrs & other “dead” rejoicing around the throne-before the second coming of the Lord.

            Only our bodies die; our spirit lives on in Christ. “To be absent from the body is to be present in the Lord” That’s why God is “not the God of the Dead”. for Christians there ARE no “Dead” . “The body shall return to the dust from whence it came; but the spirit returns to God Who gave it”.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            You better check Revelation; Plenty of instances of the Martyrs & other “dead” rejoicing around the throne-before the second coming of the Lord.

            The pagan teaching that man lives in spirit form after death is not biblical. The bible clearly states that man’s natural state is flesh and blood. Anything outside of flesh and blood is dead or a ghost. When you quote Paul about ‘being absent in body’, that could also allude to ‘sleep death’ since a person is unconscious in that state and is not aware of time. The next thing Paul will know is Christ coming in the clouds. The spirit that returns to God is the breath of God and not some disembodied conscious ghost. No where in scripture are the words ‘immortal spirit’ or ‘immortal soul’ ever found applied to man. God is the only immortal being. All other beings, including angels, derive life from God. I don’t know what version of Revelation you are reading. There are no instances of ‘dead’ ghosts rejoicing around God’s throne. Death does not come in the presence of God. A human being is alive ONLY when they are in their bodies and conscious.

          • John Humphrey

            The martyrs and other dead you speak of, is the one’s Christ resurrected when he came back to life. and he went around resurrecting people to show them his power.. and the saying to be Absent from the body is to be present with the lord , only means, that he rather out of this corrupt body and be with the lord in his glorify body and nothing more than that. and the spirit is only the breath of God that gives life.. and this is what returns to God at death.

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            MY GOD YOU ARE RIGHT,AS A PRIEST I TELL MY MEMBERSHIP AT THE CHURCH,
            ALL THE TIME,READ ,BEFORE YOU ,GO TELLING LIVING SOULS, STORY S LIKE THIS.
            MY GOD ,I WILL PRAY FOR YOU.I WISH MORE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE THE NECESSARY INFORMATION AND LEARNING,YOU HAVE.AT TIMES I HAVE TOO,
            STEP BACK AND WATCH,WHAT I SAY TOO MANY CHURCH S MAKE UP DEAR OWN,
            BIBLE,YOU CAN NOT, CHANGE , THE WORD OF GOD.MY GOD BLESS YOU.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            YOU ARE RIGHT PEOPLE NEED TOO READ MORE BEFORE THAY WRITE DOWN,
            ANY THING. MY GOD THANK YOU DAN.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Praying for the dead so that their sins can be forgiven is not in scripture. According to the bible, the only chance a man has of having his sins forgiven is this side of the grave. In the grave, his fate is sealed and the only thing left is judgment. Heb 9:27.

          • cradlecatholic

            When Christians pray for the sins of the dead they pray for those in purgatory- so that they are able to reach heaven sooner, we know that we are not able to help those who have descended to hell.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Why would Christians pray for the sins of the dead when the bible clearly states that a man’s fate is sealed at death? And where does the bible every speak of a place called purgatory? Certainly, Paul or Peter would have fully explained and given instructions to the saints on how to help their fellow Christians in Purgatory. Instead there is silence.

          • Roscoe Bonsweenie

            There’s no place in the Bible that mentions Trinity either. But Trinity is easily inferred from various verses that mention that Father is God, Son is God, Spirit is God.

            Likewise, there are verses that talk about a place, after death, where there is judgement or punishment for sins forgiven (and places that show just because a sin is forgiven, there still may be punishment). So, since there is no sin in Heaven, and if you’re in hell there is no forgiveness, there has to be a third place.

            At a minimum, there has to be a transition from this sinful world to the sinless Heaven. Since we don’t know how long that transition really is, makes sense to pray for those going through it.

            Oh, then there is the last part of John’s Gospel that mentions there was a ton of other stuff to know but the Bible only has part of it.

          • Dan Cristancho

            ‘There’s no place in the Bible that mentions Trinity either. But Trinity is easily inferred from various verses that mention that Father is God, Son is God, Spirit is God’.

            Correct. The bible is clear on the Godhead. But the bible does not in any way state that there is a place where souls go to be purified after death. The bible is most adamant when it states that it is only through the blood of Christ that sins are forgiven and the soul cleansed. 1 John 1:7,9. There is no other way. If Christ purifies the soul through his blood and merits, what further purifying need there be? The bible is also very clear that it is this side of the grave that man must seek cleansing. There is no praising God or cleansing in the grave. Only judgment. Christ paid it all, sins and suffering. Man can not improve on that. Purgatory is a lie and is used to scam money from the gullible and the ignorant.

            ‘At a minimum, there has to be a transition from this sinful world to the sinless Heaven.’

            Of course there is. It’s called the Second Coming. On that day, there will be a resurrection of the just and all the redeemed will be harvested to be with Christ forever. For now, the saints sleep in the grave, awaiting His 2nd coming.

            ‘John’s Gospel that mentions there was a ton of other stuff to know but the Bible only has part of it.’

            Yes it does say that, but any church that claims they know what the ‘tons of stuff’ is, is lying. The bible does not shed light on that at all. “The hidden things belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and our children forever, so that we may follow all the words of this law.” Deut 29:29.

          • Roscoe Bonsweenie

            2 Sam 12:13-18, “David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.’ And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick…On the seventh day the child died.” Catholic Scriptural Principle #1 – there is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness.

            Rev 21:27, “But nothing unclean shall enter it…” The New Jerusalem – Heaven. Catholic Scriptural Principle #2 – nothing unclean, nothing with the stain of sin, will enter Heaven.

            Mt 5:48, “You, therefore, must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” That’s because of Principle #2 – nothing unclean will get into Heaven.

            Heb 12:22-23, “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living god, the heavenly Jerusalem…and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect…” The spirits of just men, made perfect. Catholic Scriptural Principle #3 – there is a way, a process, through which the spirits of the “just” are “made perfect.”

            1 Cor 3:13-15, “…each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day [judgment day] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” Where is this place that a man, after he dies, suffers loss, as through fire, but is still saved. Hell? No, once you’re in Hell, you don’t get out. Heaven? No, you don’t suffer loss in Heaven.

            Mt 12:32, “And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Implies forgiveness in the age to come. Where can you go to be forgiven in the age to come? Heaven? You don’t need forgiveness. Hell? There is no forgiveness. Catholic Scriptural Principle #4 – there is a place, or state of being, other than Heaven or Hell.

            Now, let’s summarize these four scriptural principles: There is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness. We have to be perfect as the Father is perfect, because nothing unclean will enter Heaven. There is some way, or process, by which the spirits of the just are made perfect. There is a place besides Heaven or Hell where you can suffer loss, yet be saved, but only as through fire; and where you can be forgiven of sins from a previous age. It all adds up to one inevitable conclusion – the Catholic teaching on Purgatory is indeed scriptural.

          • ForumFace

            I have read this conversation with great attention, which has helped me reach an epiphany.

            People who study, quote and talk about the bible like this are basically nerds.
            Bible nerds.

          • Ken Brown

            Actually, the Church is not lying. According to 1 Timothy 3:15 – the Church is the pillar & foundation of truth.

          • Dan C.

            Being the pillar and foundation of truth is not the same as being truth itself. A pillar holds something up and so does a foundation. The pillar and the foundation are not truth in and of themselves. Only the Word of God is ever identified as ‘truth itself’. It is equal to truth according to John. “Sanctify them through Thy truth,Thy Word is truth” The bible is not only truth itself but also our avenue to sanctification. By following it’s teachings, we become sanctified. The church remains the pillar and foundation of truth as long as it upholds scripture. Once it departs from scripture, it becomes corrupt and compromising.

          • Ken Brown

            Jesus is the Word. Jesus formed a church, he did not write a book. For sure, the bible is authoritative but it’s not truth itself like you state it. Jesus is the Word and the truth, while his Church is the foundation that holds it up for the world. When Paul wrote 1 Timothy the New Testament was not formed in its current state yet. Does that mean early century Christians did not know Truth? Of course not. Paul instructs to hold fast to what was taught, either written down or spoken. Regardless, there is biblical basis for every doctrine taught by the Catholic Church.

          • Dan C.

            “Jesus is the Word. Jesus formed a church, he did not write a book.”

            Why is it that all Catholics want to remind me that Christ never wrote a book? Scripture is Truth itself because the One who inspired and moved the apostles and prophets to write scripture is just as much ‘truth’ as the One who said ‘I am the way, the Truth and the Life’.

            “Testament was not formed in its current state yet. Does that mean early century Christians did not know Truth? Of course not. Paul instructs to hold fast to what was taught, either written down or spoken.”

            The bible states that ‘ALL SCRIPTURE’ is inspired of God. All means all, including the Old testament. Christ only had the Old testament when He taught and instructed. Unless you are a prophet or an Apostle, things have to be written down because people forget or they get things wrong or they tend to embellish. God’s gift of writing infallible scripture was given to a select few, the last person to have such a gift was the Apostle John. That’s why the bible is so important. It is the infallible Word of God and is the litmus test for all other writings, doctrines and speeches. That special gift was never given to the church fathers and it certainly isn’t in tradition unless they first conform to scripture.

            “Regardless, there is biblical basis for every doctrine taught by the Catholic Church.”

            Really? Prayers to the dead, eternal torments by demons for the damned, bowing to idols of saints, the need for purgatory, forcing the conscience through threats of violence and death, Mary as Co redeemer, Co mediator and dispenser of graces, The assumption of Mary, the annulment of marriages that have children or where the spouses have been sexually active, Sunday sacredness, Christ’s actual ‘immolation’ during the Mass, etc. These things are nowhere in scripture nor do we have examples of them in scripture.

          • Ken Brown

            Dan, clearly you hold to the notion of Sola Scriptura. But did Jesus and the Apostles? There is evidence they did not. Here is one but not the only one.
            In Matthew 23:2-3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based “on Moses’ seat,” but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down.
            If Jesus believed in oral tradition why don’t you?

          • Dan C.

            If Jesus believed in oral tradition why don’t you?

            Yes, I most definitely agree with Sola Scriptura. I do believe in oral tradition, when it is in compliance with the Word of God. Christ’s admonition to comply with the teachings of Moses was not extra biblical but in compliance with God’s desire that all his ‘statutes, laws and ordinances’ be obeyed, which is voiced several times throughout the Old Testament. If Christ spoke anything that was outside of scripture, it was because He was making new scripture. As God, He can do that. Of course some of the Apostles were the authors of scripture so whatever the Holy Spirit inspired them to do, say and write, came from the highest authority. But, and this is a big ‘but’, NO ONE AFTER THE APOSTLES has ever been given that kind of authority. I’m talking about canon scripture authority, where whatever they write, say or do, has the authority that canon scripture does. We know that what someone has written, said or done is legitimate only when it complies with the Holy Word of God. That’s why I am soundly, Sola Scriptura.

          • Ken

            First let’s agree on the meaning of Sola Scripture.
            Traditionally, it means the scriptures are your sole rule of faith. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever mentioned writing a canon that would become the sole rule of faith. The Scriptures do not
            say; “Upon this rock I will build my Bible.” The Scriptures say, “Upon this rock I will build my Church” (St Matthew 16:16-19). The Scriptures say, “His intent was that now, through the Church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the
            heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Ephes 3:10-11). Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Saint Paul records, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God,the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). A church cannot be the pillar & foundation of truth if it’s not aligned to that truth, which the Catholic Church is and
            has preserved through Scripture and apostolic succession.

            The idea of Sola Scripture is as old as Christianity itself. The Sadducees were the jewish sect that adopted Sola Scriptura and the Pharisees were the jewish sect that believed in both
            Scripture and Sacred Tradition. As a Jew which did St Paul associate himself with?
            Acts 23:6 – Paul was aware that some were Sadducees and some Pharisees, so he called out before the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of Pharisees; am on trial for hope in the resurrection of the dead.” Paul surely would not have associated himself with the Pharisees if he subscribed to Sola Scriptura. In fact, he promoted sacred tradition via apostolic succession to preserve true doctrine. To ensure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the
            deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). So, this old and incorrect idea of Sola Scriptura died off until it was resurrected 1500 years later by Luther.

            Beyond that, it can be demonstrated that the Scriptures by themselves are insufficient for a rule of faith because of the dozens of Protestant denominations that each interpret Scripture differently or don’t even subscribe to the same collection of books. It is demonstrated by the friendly debate the 2 of us are having now. For interpretation, one must rely on the infallible Church which Christ gave us; God’s One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

          • Dan C.

            As a Jew which did St Paul associate himself with?
            Acts 23:6 – Paul was aware that some were Sadducees and some Pharisees, so he called out before the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of Pharisees; am on trial for hope in th e resurrection of the dead.”

            Agreed on the Sola Scriptura meaning. Paul described himself as a Pharisee of the Pharisees but he also states that he considered that all as ‘dung’ for the knowledge of Jesus Christ. The Pharisees rejected Christ and thus also rejected Paul. Your example of Paul appealing to the Pharisees at his trial was not because they had any great love for him, they hated Paul, they wanted him dead just as much as the Sadducees did. It was a tactical move to confuse his enemies into fighting among themselves. Whatever you want to say about Paul, one thing is different from Paul and Peter when compared to any pope that has ever existed. They were given the gift of writing canon scripture. No Pope, Cardinal or Bishop can claim that. The sacred traditions you are talking about that we should accept, like the Immaculate conception, the Assumption of Mary, Sunday sacredness, bowing to images in the temple, venerating relics, the Mass, purgatory, the dispensing of indulgences, prayers to the dead, Paul and Peter never heard of. They are no where in scripture. Therefore, they are commandments of men. Cunning men who want us to put these traditions on the same plain with canon scripture without canonizing them. Sorry, no can do. Unless those traditions comply with what is written in the pages of the bible, there is no way they can be inspired.

          • Dan C.

            Beyond that, it can be demonstrated that the Scriptures by themselves are insufficient for a rule of faith because of the dozens of Protestant denominations that each interpret Scripture differently or don’t even subscribe to the same collection of books”

            Protestants all subscribe to the same collection of books. I don’t know any Protestant bible that has more or less than the 66 books. Talk about interpreting scripture differently, consider this. In the Roman church, we have people who subscribe to the cult of Mary, and others who don’t. We have people who go to confession faithfully and others who don’t believe in it. We have those who practice Santaria, others, like the Radical Opus Dei who torture themselves 24/7 to obtain grace via penance, Catholic churches who support and celebrate gay marriage and others who consider it anathema, priests who give absolution to some of the worst criminals of our time, including the mafia, some who practice birth control and some who don’t, and the list goes on and on. It makes you wonder ‘who’s in charge, anyway?’ Besides the fact that the Roman church has about 29 factions that have broken off from it, and all the doctrinal confusion that exists amongst its parishioners, I’d say you had just as big a problem as the protestant churches. The only difference is, you can be anything you want to be in the Roman church as long as you do the sacraments and kiss the Pope’s ring. The fact that we have so many denominations in the Protestant movement only means the devil is always more busy where he knows the truth abides. Of all the 30,000 Protestant denominations out there, there is only one that is a world church and rivals the Roman church in colleges, schools, publishing houses, hospitals and clinics, disaster relief, and missions…The Seventh day Adventist church. It is also the church that adheres to all 10 of God’s commandments, including the 7th day (Saturday) Sabbath. No other Protestant denomination even comes close. How does the scriptures define saints? ” Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus Christ.” Rev 14:12 Who are the remnant? “And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Rev 12:17.

          • Dan C.

            For interpretation, one must rely on the infallible Church which Christ gave us; God’s One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

            For interpretation, the bible recommends asking help from the Holy Spirit who’s job it is to lead you to all truth. Pope Francis is one of many popes who believes the Genesis account is narrative and should be taken as historical with the exception of the 1st 11 chapters, thus denying the historical account of Creation and the flood, a concept neither Christ nor any apostle or prophet have ever introduced in scripture. Pope Francis has failed repeatedly to take a stand on the sin of homosexuality, a lifestyle condemned both in the New and Old testament. Even to this day, we still don’t know if he considers it a sin or not. He’s never gone on the record. How in the world can you expect me to put my eternal destiny in the hands of such confusion? No way. I’ll take my chances with the Holy Spirit.

          • andy korpisah

            I’m okay with this!.I read the discussions here and I was say that I am sound with what you have said so far. Thank you Ken

          • eon

            “Yes, I most definitely agree with Sola Scriptura.”

            Yet, Sola Scriptura is nowhere in the Bible. It a self contradictory teaching and principle!

          • Dan C.

            Yet, Sola Scriptura is nowhere in the Bible

            Actually, it’s all over the bible, bro. Over and over again we are directed, not only by Christ but Paul, Peter, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc., to the Word of God. What’s not anywhere in the bible is Sola Iglesia. That’s an invention of the Papacy.

          • lili

            Exactly! They have no logics!

          • Dan C.

            It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah,

            Just for the record, the Mishnah has no authority with me. They are what Christ described them as, the ‘commandments of men’. Again, I know I said this in my first comment, but I’ll say it again, Christ’s call to obey the teachings of those who sit in ‘Moses seat’ or those who expound the laws of Moses, is not extra biblical. Several times in the Old Testament, God makes it very clear that His judgments, laws, ordinances and statutes (including the law of Moses) are to be obeyed.

          • Dan C.

            Yes, I understand that, but that does not make it equal to truth. It only makes it the guardian of truth. Only the Word of God is equal to Truth. ” Thy word is truth” There is a big difference between saying the church ‘is truth’ and the church is ‘the pillar and guardian of truth’. It’s not the same. You can’t be the guardian of something and also be that something.

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            I AM SORRY NOT TRUE ,GOD BLESSINGS.
            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            EVERY PRAYER HELP THE DEAD,NOT EVERY ONE GO TO HEAVEN,
            PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT MANY NON TRAINED MINISTERS
            WHO ARE NOT REAL PRIEST S TELL LIES WHY DO YOU THINK,
            YOU HAVE SOULS WALKING THE EARTH.NOV 2 ALL SOULS DAY
            THE MONTH OG NOVEMBER WE PRAY FOR ALL THE DEAD.
            DEAR 3 PLACES YOU GO ,THE TWO IS NOT BAD HELL IS
            NOT GOOD.MANY OF US WILL GO TO HELL BECAUSE OFSIN
            AND UN BELIEVE. PLEASE PRAY FOR PEACE.

            CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB. CANON PRIEST MONK

          • danc51

            EVERY PRAYER HELP THE DEAD,NOT EVERY ONE GO TO HEAVEN,

            Dear Priest, the bible tells us we will go to heaven when Christ comes in the clouds. That’s when we are told we ‘shall ever be with the Lord’. There is no text anywhere in the bible that teaches we go to heaven as soon as we die. There isn’t even one example of Christ or the Apostles praying for the dead or commanding that we pray for the dead.

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            I AM NOT ,GOING BACK,AND FORTH ON,THIS ISSUE,I WAS TOLD BY THE DEPARTMENT FOR, PRIESTLY DUTIES,NOT TOO ,GO BACK AND FORTH,WITH
            THIS MY BELIEVE S I HAVE TOO DEAL WITH MY OWN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC S
            WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE FAITH.
            PLEASE I CAN NOT GO,ON WITH THIS I WAS MISS LEAD I HAD THE IDEA ALL,
            OF YOU WAS ROMAN CATHOLIC, OR ANGLICAN CATHOLIC, OR ORTHODOX.
            I ONLY CAN ,DEAL WITH ,SOULS WHO UNDERSTAND,THE CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC,
            FAITH. NO DISRESPECT TOO NON CONSERVATIVE OR NON CATHOLIC S

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

            SENIOR CANON PRIEST RECTOR .

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            PLEASE GO TO YOUR ARCHBISHOP OR AREA VICAR OR MSGR OR SENIOR PRIEST
            THEY WILL HELP YOU, MY FRIEND IT TOO MUCH FOR ME TO WRITE ON.
            I WILL SAY PRAY FOR THE DEAD,BELIEVE ME IT HELPS THEY ARE DEAD IN BODY
            BUT ALIVE IN SOUL THEY MISS DEAR OWN LOVE ONES TOO ASK YOUR PRIEST.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

            CANON DEAN,VICAR

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            VERY TRUE,I LOVE WHAT YOU SAID,GOD BLESS YOU.

          • eon

            Praying for the dead is in Maccabees 2, so yes, it is in scripture. Maybe your Bible is missing some books, but that’s another whole different problem.

          • Dan C.

            Praying for the dead is in Maccabees 2, so yes, it is in scripture.

            Actually, the books of Maccabees were not actual scripture until the 15th (1546) century when the Roman church decided they were canon scripture after all. 1500 years without being canonized means you’re not important. Being canonized as an afterthought is hardly evidence that you belong with the original 66. None of the writers of the New Testament ever acknowledge praying for or to the dead. The Gospels, Peter, Paul , Jude, James and John’s other books never even hint that praying for the dead or to the dead, is a Christian duty or has any salvific value.

          • eon

            You are dead wrong about Maccabees 2 not being part of the Bible. The 4 oldest bibles on earth all contain Maccabees 1 and 2 and they are all at least 1700 years old, Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Alexandrinus and Codex Ephraemi. The Vulgate which was published in 382 is a translation from Saint Jerome under Pope Damasus contains Maccabees 1 and 2. So how do you dare to say it was not in the Bible before 1546? It is a blatant lie or you are just terribly misinformed.

          • Dan C.

            So how do you dare to say it was not in the Bible before 1546? It is a blatant lie or you are just terribly misinformed.

            No, I didn’t say they weren’t included in the bible, I said they weren’t CANON scripture until the mid 1500s. That’s why i reject the Apocrypha.

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            MY FRIEND DAN YOU ARE VERY RIGHT,GOD BLESSINGS TOO,YOU AND YOUR FAMILY,HAVE A GREAT SUMMER.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            NOT TRUE,PRAYING FOR THE DEAD HELP DEAR SOUL,BLESSINGS THE GRAVE
            AND RESTING PLACE S ,WHY THE EVIL ONE IS WAITING TO DO HIS EVIL WORK,
            ON EVERY ONE DEATH BED DEAR A TEST GOD AND SATAN ,READ POPE LEO
            13 WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM ,MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS REVNICK1973@OPTIMUM.NET I WILL E MAIL IT TOO YOU, THE ST MICHAEL ARCH ANGEL PRAYER IT A PRAY I READ ,THE EVIL SPIRIT S AT TIMES MESS WITH ME
            I PRAY ST MICHAEL THE ARCH ANGEL ,THE REST YOU WILL RESD ON.
            SATAN IS REAL WE NEED TO PRAY TO GOD JESUS CHRIST AND MARY AND
            HIS SAINTS I TELL YOU NO LIES MY FRIEND FOR 25 YEARS I READ ON IT.
            PLEASE PRAY FOR ME.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB
            CANON MONK ,PRIEST RECTOR

          • danc51

            THE ST MICHAEL ARCH ANGEL PRAYER

            Please don’t go through the trouble of sending me St. Michael’s prayer. I don’t pray to anyone except the Godhead. Only God can hear and answer prayers. The bible tells us we are to pray in the name of Jesus Christ for our petitions. There is no text anywhere in scripture that tells us to pray in any other name. You have no scripture to back your beliefs, dear priest.

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            THANKS NO DISRESPECT,I WAS TOID MY MY DIOCESE,I MUST BE VERY CAREFUL,
            WRITING TOO MUCH BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS ORTHODOX OR ROMAN CATHOLIC, I HAVE TOO MANY ,THINGS TOO DEAL WITH I AM SORRY , I HAD THE IDEA,YOU WAS OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH,I WILL NEVER NEVER NEVER AS A PRIEST, GET MY SELF IN TOO THIS MY AGAIN.MY FAITH IS NOT ONLY IN GOD,BUT
            HIS SAINTS ALSO,I WAS AT,THE END OF MY LIFE,AND THE EVIL ONE WAS RIGHT
            DEAR I RESPECT NON CATHOLIC S LIKE MY OWN NIECE ,WHO NOT AND AT ONE
            TIME SHE WAS,WE NOT CLOSE ,SHE BELIEVE IN GOD HER OWN WAY,THIS HOE
            MESS,PUT ME IN HOT WATER I AM A SENIOR PRIEST, A CANON DEAN, I TRAIN,
            DEACONS AND PRIESTS I CAN NOT ,GO BACK AND FORTH ,WITH THIS.
            I AM SORRY,SORRY SORRY SORRY I HAD A BAD WEEK END OUR THIS,WHOLE,
            MESS SOME ONE REPORT ME ,ITS NOT LIKE THE MANY FAITH S MINISTERS,
            ANSWER TOO NO ONE. I AM 44 A CONSERVATIVE A FAITHFUL CANON MSGR,
            PRIEST I AM ALSO A MONK, MANY NON CONSERVATIVE AND NON CATHOLIC S
            TEAR ,DOWN OUR FAITH I BELIEVE IN GOD ,AND JESUS CHRIST,THE APOSTOLIC
            LORD.THIS IS WAY I MUST BE CAREFUL WHO I TALK WITH. I ONLY DEAL WITH
            MY CHURCH PRO CATHEDRAL I AM DEAN AND RECTOR OF.
            AT TIMES PEOPLE WRITE DOWN NASTY THINGS, ABOUT THE CATHOLIC FAITH.
            ITS SAD THIS COUNTRY CAME TOO, THIS ,I AM HAVING A CONSERVATIVE,
            TRADITIONAL CHURCH MEETING ON THIS ,AS CATHOLIC S OR ANGLICAN CATHOLIC S OR ORTHODOX CATHOLIC S WE MUST SAY TOGETHER,BECAUSE
            THE NON CONSERVATIVE TRADITIONAL CHURCHES ARE TEARING OUR
            FAITH DOWN I THANK GOD FOR MY LATE GRAND MOTHER,AND PRIEST,
            WHO RAISED ME UP IN THE TRUE FAITH. I AM GOING TOO KEEP THE FAITH.
            I WILL NEVER ASK ANY ONE TOO,LOOK UP ON A SAINT,UNTIL I NO THEY
            ARE ROMAN CATHOLIC,OR ORTHODOX CATHOLIC. I AM NOT GOING TOO,
            GO BACK AND FORTH WITH THIS ISSUE,I HAVE MEMBERS IN MY CHURCH ,THAT
            NEED ME.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            FINE WHAT EVER PEACE. PLEASE I AM NOT GOING BACK AND FORTH WITH THIS.
            I HAVE WAY TOO,MUCH TOO DEAL WITH.

            CANON DEAN NICHOLAS ARTHUR ACRES OSB OCR LTH

            SENIOR /RECTOR / VICAR MONK

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            PEACE

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            True,THANK YOU,

        • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

          WHAT A GREAT HISTORY,LOOK AT ST PIO, ST JOHN 23
          I WISH WE CAN SEE POPE SAINT JOHN PAUL 2.
          THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

          • danc51

            John Paul II acted irresponsibly in not taking steps to decommission and defrock pedophile priests so they could be prosecuted by the law. Instead, hundreds of predatory priests were recycled and put back into the system to produce more harm and destroy the lives of innocent children. What is worse, the church offered to pay victims and families of victims to stay quiet, thus adding sin to sin. He was no saint. Pope John Paul II was also instrumental in giving inertia to the Mary as coredemptrix, comediatrix and dispenser of graces movement, next to Christ. A doctrine completely foreign to scripture and never espoused by Christ or any of the Apostles, including Peter. That was the most blasphemous act of his Papacy and it is my conviction that Pope John Paul II put his trust in the wrong ‘savior’.

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            NOT TRUE,WHAT WRONG WITH THE WORLD WE TEAR DOWN GREAT MEN,AND
            LOOK UP TO PRESIDENT S AND OTHER LEADERS VERY SAD.LOOK AT 911 THE
            EVIL ACTS ,THIS IS WHY AS A TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE PRIEST I STAY TO MY
            SELF,WHAT HAPPENED TO THIS COUNTRY,MY GOD THIS IS NOT A TRADITIONAL
            COUNTRY,BUILT ON GOD WE TEAR DOWN A LATE POPE AT SAINT,ONE DAY
            THE ONES WILL BE ON DEAR DEATH BED CRYING OUT TO GOD AND HIS SAINTS,
            THE KEY WORD IS RESPECT,AS A PRIEST IT HURT ME,TO HER THIS I PRAY TO
            GOD AND HIS SAINTS,I WAS CLOSE TO DEATH I UNDERSTAND THE MINISTRY
            OF SAINT S MANY CATHOLIC S AND ORTHODOX CATHOLIC S DO NOT VERY SAD.
            I BLAME THIS NEW AGE CATHOLIC CHURCH,THE CHURCH BEFORE VATICAN TWO
            WAS TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE HIGH ALTAR S THE GLORY OF GOD.
            I WILL SAY POPE JOHN PAUL,POPE BENEDICT WAS TRUE CONSERVATIVE
            AND TRADITIONAL,POPE FRANCIS,IS NOT,THE LAST FEW POPES
            HAD A GREAT LOVE FOR SAINTS I RESPECT THE BISHOP OF ROME,
            BUT WE NEED THAT GOOD OLD TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE CHURCH.
            FOR THE ONES WHO HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY ,ABOUT SAINT JOHN PAUL
            WELL GO TO THE PROTESTANT CHURCH OR THE NON APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC FAITH,WITH NO APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION,SHAME ON ANY ROMAN CATHOLIC,
            OR ORTHODOX CATHOLIC WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE COMMUNION OF
            SAINT S EVEN THE HIGH ANGLICAN CHURCH DO.
            I WILL PRAY FOR YOU,AND SOME OF THE MEMBERS OF MY CHURCH PRO
            CATHEDRAL I SERVE AS CANON DEAN RECTOR PRIEST, THE SAINTS
            ARE REAL THIER BODY S OF HOLY ,LIKE IT OR NOT.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

          • danc51

            ONE DAY THE ONES WILL BE ON DEAR DEATH BED CRYING OUT TO GOD AND HIS SAINTS,

            I apologize for hurting your feelings. I only state things as the truth about them has been revealed by history. Priests that had molested dozens of children were neither defrocked nor removed but passed around from parish to parish, being moved again after several incidents of molestation. The church, under the guidance of Pope John Paul II, in the shadows, paying the families to be quiet. If you think this is just made up stuff, then you need to address the Boston Globe’s reporting procedures. I know enough about scripture to say this is reprehensible behavior for any establishment that claims to follow Christ. As a Protestant, I must insist that on my death bed, neither Mary nor the saints will be on my mind, but I shall put my whole trust in Christ, my Savior and heavenly advocate. For there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. Thank you for your prayers. I will pray for you as well.

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            I AM SORRY ,I WAS TO THINK YOU WAS OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH
            NO DISRESPECT MANY PROTESTANT MINISTER S RAPE CHILDREN, LOOK THE THE CHURCH OF GOD IN CHRIST,
            I AM SORRY I WAS TO THINK YOU WAS ROMAN CATHOLIC,
            OR HIGH EPISCOPAL OR ORTHODOX CATHOLIC,AND I DO NOT LOOK AT MARY AS GOD, OR THE SAINTS I HAVE FEW FAMILY MEMBERS WHO WALKED WAY FROM THE TRUTH FAITH,NO DISRESPECT,MOST OF MY DEALING WITH IS OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH,, THE MINISTER S OF PROTESTANT FAITH SOME ARE VERY
            HIGH CHURCH,THAT MEAN THEY BELIEVE IN THE TRUE FAITH,
            I AM A WESTERN RITE ORTHODOX CANON PRIEST,I AM NOT
            UNDER THE POPE,I AM ONLY IN UNITY WITH HIM.I AM ANGLICAN
            IN TRADITION NOT THE GAY FRIENDLY EPISCOPAL ANGLICAN CHURCH THE WESTERN RITE ORTHODOX ANGLICAN TRADITION.
            I DO NOT NO WHAT I GOT MY SELF IN TOO,BUT I WILL SAY THIS
            I WAS CLOSE TO DEATH 2 TIMES I WAS AT PEACE GOD AND HIS
            SAINT S CAME TO ME ST MICHAEL ARCH ANGEL,I SAW THE EVIL
            ONE SEE THIS IS WHY IS GODE TO PRAY FOR THE SICK AND DEAD.
            THE EVIL ONE WAS TRYING TO TAKE MY WILL MY OF OF GOD,
            MY HEART RATE WENT DOWN ,I WENT OUT,SEE I LOVE JESUS BUT
            THE CHURCH HAVE TOOLS THE SAINTS MANY PEOPLE WHO NOT
            CATHOLIC DO NOT UNDERSTAND,AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
            ROMAN CATHOLIC,CHANGE THE TRADITIONAL MASS WHY TO
            PLEASE THE PROTESTANT S NO DISRESPECT THAT WAS SO WRONG. CATHOLIC CHURCH S LOOK LIKE PROTESTANT S CHURCH S READ VATICAN TWO COUNCIL,NO DISRESPECT
            I CAN NOT GO IN A PLANE LOOKING CHURCH ,IF I DO I HAVE TOO
            I FEEL SOMETHING MISSING IN THE PROTESTANT S CHURCH S
            NO DISRESPECT I WORRY ABOUT ONE OF MY BISHOP S
            HE MORE PROTESTANT THEN TRADITIONAL IN TRADITION I AM SORRY SO IS POPE FRANCIS,I AM VERY TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE IN EVERY WAY AS DEAN RECTOR PASTOR OF THE CATHEDRAL ANY ARCHBISHOP BISHOP OR PRIEST MUST RESPECT THE NORMS AND TRADITIONAL RITES OF THE CHURCH.
            IF I HAVE A ALL FAITH SERVICE THE MINISTER S MUST WEAR VESTMENTS IT GO BACK TO THE BIBLE,NO DISRESPECT MY GOD
            I WISH AND I TOLD MY FRIEND WHO A NUN EVERY ONE WAS OF
            THE SAME APOSTOLIC CHURCH THE CATHOLIC FAITH HAVE APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION SOME PROTESTANT CHURCHES
            DO I LOVE THE HIGH LUTHERAN CHURCH,THE HIGH ALTAR
            SOME ARE MORE CATHOLIC THEN ROME.I LIKE SOME METHODIST
            CHURCH S SOME ARE CATHOLIC MINDED AND THEY WESR PRIEST VESTMENTS,AND SOME ARE SO ,JUST LIKE A CLASS ROOM.
            YOU HAVE A MINISTER WITH A BIBLE TALKING ,WE BELIEVE IN
            THE TRUE MASS THE TRUE MEANING OF HOLY COMMUNION.
            NO DISRESPECT.MY LIFE IS A LIFE OF PRAYER I DO NOT TALK,
            MUCH ONLY WHEN I HAVE TOO I WAS IN A MONK RECTORY FOR YEARS I LIVED OUT SIDE A RECTORY BUT I AM STILL UNDER
            THE DIOCESE,I DO NOT GO OUT SIDE TO HANG OUT WITH MY NEIGHBOR S WHY SOME SAY THE SAME STORY O MANY PRIEST S
            RAPE CHILDREN,BUT I LIKE YOU ,VERY REVEREND CANON DEAN
            HOW PAINFUL,I STAY IN MY HOUSE AND STAY ALONE I ONLY
            NEED GOD JESUS AND MARY AND HIS SAINTS,MAN AND
            WOMEN HAVE TURN ME IN TO A VERY SAD SOUL,THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA BY NO MEANS HAVE NO RESPECT FOR PRIEST S I DO NOT CARE I AM NOT A PRIEST WHO EVER WOULD
            HURT A CHILD,I DO NOT WANT TO BE AROUND CHILDREN
            AT ALL,I DO NOT WANT THEM IN mY OFFICE OR
            RECTORY O ME NO DISRESPECT.I TRAINED PRIEST S FOR THE
            PRIESTHOOD AND I TELL THEM KEEP AWAY FROM BOYS
            AND GIRLS AT MY CHURCH I HAVE NO ALTAR BOYS OR GIRLS
            ONLY LAY PEOPLE,NO DISRESPECT,IN AMERICA TOO MUCH
            DIFFERENT PEOPLE TOO MANY TRADITION S AT ONE TIME
            IN THE WEST INDIES ALL CHURCH S WAS CATHOLIC OR
            HIGH ANGLICAN OR ANGO CATHOLIC NO DISRESPECT THIS IS WHY I STAY TOO MY SELF,NO DISRESPECT TOO AMERICA BUT
            I WISH I CAN MOVE TO THE WEST INDIES IN A TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE ANGLICAN CATHOLIC TOWN. MY HEART KEEP
            ME IN AMERICA,WHEN I VISIT THE WEST INDIES I CAN FEEL
            FREE IN NEW YORK UP STATE THE GAYS TOO OVER THE MUSLIM S
            OWN ALL THE STORE S IT MAKE ME SICK.THIS IS WHY I NEED MY
            GOD MY JESUS CHRIST AND THE TRUE APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC FAITH.GOD BLESSINGS TOO ALL.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB
            CANON DEAN/ VICAR SENIOR PRIEST

          • danc51

            NO DISRESPECT MANY PROTESTANT MINISTER S RAPE CHILDREN, LOOK THE THE CHURCH OF GOD IN CHRIST,

            Yes, there is abuse in the Protestant churches too, I’m aware of that. That’s not the issue. None of those Protestant ministers were upheld in their sin by the Protestant church they served. No Protestant church, on finding a minister to be a pedophile, moved him to another church or tried to hide the issue from the public or bribed the family to keep quiet. Those churches didn’t step in and prevent the arrest and conviction of guilty pastors. This was a church conspiracy that went all the way up to the Pope. Pope John Paul II was aware and did not do the right thing. His negligence only led to the abuse of hundreds of more children. That’s history and that is no way for a ‘saint’ to behave.

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            PEACE I AM NOT GOING,BACK AND FORTH WITH THIS,AT ALL,I AM UP AT 2:31 AM
            IN,GREAT PAIN,OUR MY OWN LIFE, AS A PRIEST ,A SENIOR PRIEST I AM VERY
            UP SET ABOUT IT,I AM NOT AT PEACE WITH MANY ISSUES, I WAS RAPED
            BY A PROTESTANT MINISTER AS A BOY A WOMAN ,THEY MORE HER AROUND,
            UNTIL SHE RETIRED,IN 1994 I AM NOT GOING TO GO BACK AND FORTH WITH,
            THIS ISSUE,POPE JOHN PAUL WAS ONE PERSON ,THE HOW THING MADE HIS
            HEATH ,GO DOWN HILL,NOTE I AM NOT A ROMAN CATHOLIC MSGR CANON,
            LETS PUT THAT ON THE TABLE. I AM NO FAN OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.
            I AM A CONSERVATIVE,WESTERN RITE ORTHODOX CANON MSGR PRIEST,
            I LOVED ST POPE JOHN PAUL ,THATS ME. PLEASE I WANT PEACE I AM IN
            GREAT BODY,PAIN I AM A 44YEAR OLD WORN OUT ORTHODOX PRIEST,
            I AM SO HURT, AT HOW THIS SO CALLED COUNTY UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
            TREAT PRIEST S, I NEVER HURT, A CHILD ,AS A MONK ALSO I STAY TOO MY SELF.
            YES THE ROMAN CATHOLIC HAD BAD PRIESTS ,BUT NO DISRESPECT ,
            THIS COUNTRY HAD DONE UNGODLY THINGS TOO THE WEST INDIES,
            THEY HAVE TOOK LAND FROM THE INDIAN PEOPLE RAPE DEAR WOMEN,
            FAST PRESIDENT S HAD SLAVE S GOOD WHITE PEOPLE WAS KILLED,
            FOR TRYING TOO HELP THEM.SLAVERY WAS A BIG THING IN AMERICA,
            AND WE LOOK, UP TOO THESE SO CALLED LATE PRESIDENT S ,I AM SORRY
            I AM SORRY ,I AM NOT WELL, BUT EVERY COUNTRY EVERY CHURCH HAD DONE,
            WRONG,YES IT IS SO WRONG GAY MARRIAGE ,FAMILY HAVING SEX WITH,
            FAMILY MEMBERS ,DRUG S WOMEN TIME AFTER TIME,BEING DISRESPECTED,
            BY MEN ALL IN ALL WHO RIGHT, I AM SO HURT AT HOW THIS COUNTRY AND
            CHURCH S ARE NOT ,NOT BEING TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE I MUST LEAVE
            WITH THIS YOU RIGHT OK ,NO DISRESPECT YOU RIGHT, BUT LOOK THE MUSLIM S
            ARE HAPPY WE TEARING EACH OTHER APART GOD BLESSINGS TO YOU ,HAVE
            A GREAT SUMMER,PLEASE FOR GIVE ME , I AM A WEARY SOUL.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            PEACE

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            NO DISRESPECT,I CAN NOT DEAL WITH THIS ANY MORE TOO, MUCH PAIN.
            BLESSINGS.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            THANK YOU FOR YOUR PRAYERS.
            CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB
            SENIOR PRIEST

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            PLEASE LET US RESPECT EACH OTHER.LET US RESPECT THE LATE POPE.
            THE EVIL ONE WHAT US,TO TEAR EACH OTHER DOWN.POPE JOHN PAUL
            IS A SAINT,HE AND THE LATE GREAT PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN,
            KILLED COMMUNISM IN RUSSIA,WHAT DID MR OBAMA ADMINISTRATION DO,
            TURN CATHOLIC S AGAINST EACH OTHER,O HE FOR THE MUSLIM S
            LETS TALK ABOUT THAT.WE NEED POPE JOHN PAUL AND GREAT PRESIDENT S
            LIKE RONALD REAGAN, I AM SORRY ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL ,AMERICA
            NEED GOD,THE SAD THING THE MUSLIM S HAVE MORE RIGHT S
            SAINT JOHN PAUL DID NOT K ILL OVER 3000 PEOPLE I WILL LOVE TO VIST
            HIS HOLY ALTAR,AND RESTING PLACE I NEED PEACE IN MY LIFE.
            I WISH THE WHOLE WORLD WAS TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE,
            ORTHODOX CATHOLIC,OR ROMAN CATHOLIC,OR HIGH ANGLICAN
            IT BE A BETTER PLACE.O ST MICHAEL ARCH ANGEL PRAY FOR US.

            THE VERY REVEREND FR CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

          • danc51

            ‘WHAT DID MR OBAMA ADMINISTRATION DO’

            I’m not fan of Obama. His obsession with LGBTQ and his insane policies on Muslim immigrants are destroying the moral fabric of America.

            ‘I WILL LOVE TO VISITHIS HOLY ALTAR,AND RESTING PLACE I NEED PEACE IN MY LIFE.’

            My dear Priest, Christ is the source of all peace. Why do you rely on man for your peace? Christ Himself stated, ‘My peace I give unto you, not as the world giveth, I give unto you. Let not our heart be troubled, neither be afraid. John 14:27

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            MY FRIEND IN GOD,I AM SORRY,MAY THE PEACE OF GOD BE WITH YOU,WE ARE
            ON THE SAME PAGE,AT TIMES I GO OVER BOARD.I WILL PRAY FOR YOU ,AND YOUR FAMILY. I WILL SAY ,YOU ARE SO RIGHT,WE NEED PEACE.AMEN.I TOO
            TO FAN OF MR OBAMA,THE LGBT AT ALL ,AS A TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE
            I GO THROUGH HELL WITH MY OWN BLACK AMERICAN S .I THANK GOS FOR MY
            LATE PRIEST MY GREAT GRANDMOTHER ,MY GRANDMOTHER REST DEAR SOULS.
            AT TIMES I VISIT DEAR GRAVE ,I THE PAIN OF DEAR LOST ,AFTER MANY YEARS.
            THE PAIN OF THIS UN TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE COUNTRY,THE PAIN OF
            LIFE ,YOU SAID SOMETHING THAT HELP ME THIS MORNING,KEY WORD PEACE.
            PLEASE PRAY FOR ME,I WILL PRAY FOR YOU,AND YOUR FAMILY,AGAIN I AM
            MUST SORRY,AS A SENIOR PRIEST CANON DEAN OF A PRO CATHEDRAL,I NEED
            TO UNDERSTAND,AND NOT ACT FIRST,YOU VIST THE HOLY ALTAR S OF GOD,
            YOU A GREAT CATHOLIC I WISH DEAR WAS MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU. AS A PRIEST
            MONK I AM AT TIMES TOO HOW CAN I SAY IT ,I MEAN SO WRONG. PLEASE FORGIVE ME. I ASK YOUR PRAYERS ,I ASK YOU TOO PRAY ,THAT I CAN CONTINUE,
            TO SERVE MY CHURCH,THE PRO CATHEDRAL,I AM 44 A PRIEST OVER 20 YEARS
            A CANON 4 YEARS MY HEART MY HEALTH,IS A ISSUE,I HAD 26 BONE SURGERY S
            AND I HAVE A PAIN PUMP,IN MY BODY,I NEED PEACE,AND I LOVE WHAT YOU SAID.
            ABOUT JESUS CHRIST AND PEACE.PAIN RUN MY LIFE AND PAIN CAUSE DEPRESSION ,THIS IS WAY I LOOK TO THE LORD JESUS,AND HIS SAINTS.
            I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN,ABOUT THE POPE JOHN PAUL,TOO MUCH
            WRONG WENT ON WITH BAD PRIEST S WHO DID EVIL THINGS TO YOUNG CHILDREN.LATE POPE PAUL 6 SAID THE SMOKE OF SATAN WENT IN THE VATICAN.THE LATE POPE PAUL DIED IN 1978, A SAD SOUL WHY BAD PRIESTS
            MY GOD HELP ME ,O LORD HEAR MY PRAYER,I WEEP ,FOR THE CHILDREN,
            THE BAD PRIESTS RAPE ,THE NUNS THEY USED THE EVIL ACTS ,BUT I SEE
            MANY GREAT PRIEST S OLD HOLY PRIESTS . MY CROSS I MUST ,DEAL WITH IS
            MY PAIN,BUT MY FRIEND IN JESUS THE KEY WORD IS PEACE YOU LIFTED
            MY PRIESTLY SOUL. I LOOK FORWARD TO THE DAY WHEN I WILL REST.
            I LOVE THE OLD ROMAN CATHOLIC MASS,SND THE TRADITIONAL WESTERN RITE
            ORTHODOX MASS,FACING EAST ,PRAYING TO THE LORD FROM THE EAST.
            I AM A WESTERN RITE ORTHODOX TRADITIONAL CANON MSGR PRIEST,
            MANY SSY I AM TOO OUT DATED,I DO NOT CARE I LOVE THE ART OF
            THE HIGH ALTAR,PEACE COME TO MY MIND.MY CATHEDRAL I AM RECTOR OF
            HAVE A NICE HIGH ALTAR,I USE IT AT TIMES WE HAVE A NICE FREE STANDING ALTAR I USE IT ,ONLY BECAUSE,I THINK THE FAITHFUL NEED TO SEE
            THE MASS,SEE THE PEACE OF GOD, BUT I AM HAVE MIXED FEELINGS,
            SO AFTER ADVENT SUNDAY I WILL ONLY USE THE TRADITIONAL HIGH ALTAR.
            PLEASE PRAY FOR ME.AS A CANON PRIEST I HAVE A LOT OF RESPONSIBILITY S
            AND MANY PRIEST S WILL NOT SAY THIS AT TIMES I WEEP ALONE, AT TIMES
            I CAN NOT HELP IT I CAN NOT HOLD THE TEARS BACK,I CARE ALOT I OVER
            WORK TO THE POINT ,I HAD TO GO IN THE HOSPITAL BUT THE KEY WORD,
            PEACE OF GOD.WE ALL HAVE OUR GOOD AND AND BAD DAY S. I PRAY FOR
            MR OBAMA ADMINISTRATION,I AM NO FAN OF HIM I DO NOT NO HOW
            YOU FEEL ABOUT THE LATE PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN,BUT I FEEL HE
            WAS A GREAT PRESIDENT,HE HAD SOME THINGS HE DID I DID NOT LIKE,
            BUT HE WAS BETTER THAN MR OBAMA,EVERY THING IS GAY MARRIAGE
            GAY RIGHT S I AM SICK OF IT.WE NEED A LEADER WHO RESPECT OUR FAITH.
            STAND UP ,AND BE A PRESIDENT NOT A GAY RIGHT S JOKE.
            I AM SORRY,MY GOD THE PEACE OF THE LORD,BE WITH YOU.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            VERY TRUE MR OBAMA LOVE FOR MUSLIMS AND GAY RIGHT S.
            WE NEED PEACE IN OUR LIVES.MY LORD YOU AER RIGHT.THE LGBT
            MAKE ME SO ILL I AM SO TIRED OF HEARING ABOUT IT.
            THE MUSLIM S ARE KILLING OUR COUNTRY AND I WILL SAY IT
            HE ONE,I AM SORRY YES MY FRIEND IN GOD WE NEED PEACE.
            THE ALTAR OF GOD WHEN I SAY MASS ,OF ANY CATHOLIC RITE
            I AM AT PEACE BUT WHEN I SEE MR OBAMA ON TV OR THE
            LGBT IT MAKE ME SICK ,IN FL EPISCOPAL PRIEST S IN GAY STOLES
            WAKING AT A SERVICE FOR THE LATE GAYS WHO WAS KILLED
            IT MADE ME SICK, NO DISRESPECT MANY GOOD PEOPLE GET KILLED
            ALL THE TIME ,MR OBAMA ADMINISTRATION IS A JOKE,
            WHAT ABOUT 911 THIS WAS A GAY CLUBHOUSE AND THEY SHOULD HAVE
            BEEN TRYING TO CHANGE DEAR LIFE ,LET THEM REST ,WEAR EVER
            DEAR SOUL S GO FOR GIVE ME ,I AM SORRY THE GAY ISSUE IS
            SAD TO ME I HAVE ONE IN MY FAMILY AND I AM SHOCKED HURT
            SHAME I COME FROM A CONSERVATIVE FAMILY MY SISTER AND
            HER DAUGHTER IS GAY I WANT NO PART OF IT,SO I HAVE A FRIEND
            I TAKE AS A SISTER AND A CONSERVATIVE FAMILY WHO LIKE MY OWN.
            MY GRANDMOTHER USED TO TELL ME NICHOLAS ARTHUR WHEN
            YOUR OWN RACE TEAR YOU DOWN THE WHITE MEN WILL HELP YOU.
            MANY BLACKS AMERICAN LOVE MR OBAMA GOOD FOR THEM.
            I LOOK UP TO A WOMAN WHO,WHEN I WAS VERY WEAK TOOK ME IN
            HER HOME,I HAD HAD TO ASK THE DIOCESE AND BISHOP,
            HE SAID I WAS FINE IT WAS HIS FAMILY,ANY WAY,THEY WAS GOOD TO ME,
            MR OBAMA AND THE BLACK S NEED TO STOP BLAMING WHITE PEOPLE.
            FOR WHAT HAPPENED 500 YEARS AGO,WE NEED THE PEACE OF GOD,
            HIS HOLY MOTHER CHURCH,LIKE THE LATE MOTHER ANGELINA SAID.
            GOD BLESS.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB
            CANON DEAN/ CANON VICAR FOR CORPORATE REUNION

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            MY DEAR FRIEND I DO NOT LOOK AT MEN FOR PEACE,I GET MISS UNDERSTOOD
            ALOT,I LOOK AT GOD,BUT AS A PRIEST PLEASE UNDERSTAND I WAS
            TRAINED BY GREAT BISHOP S AS A TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE PRIEST
            MY JOB IS TO PAST DOWN THE TRUTH I AM SORRY ,BY NO MEANS I LOOK
            TO ANY MAN FOR PEACE,MAN WILL FAIL TIME AFTER TIME, I AM A MONK
            ALSO AND MY LIFE IS PRAYER ALL DAY ,AND I STAY TOO MY SELF,
            I GO OUT VERY LITTLE I ONLY DEAL WITH MY MEMBERSHIP OF MY CHURCH.
            I TRUST NOT IN ANY ONE ,PLEASE NOTE THIS .
            PLEASE I USED TO TRUST ,NO More I TRUST GOD ONLY.
            MY EMAIL ADDRESS SOME ONE HACK IN TOO IT I HAD TO GO TO THE POLICE STATION ,SO I TRUST GOD ONLY . I DO LOVE SOME OF HIS SAINTS BUT
            I DO NOT PUT THEM IN THE PLACE OF GOD. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT.
            BLESSINGS.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES

          • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

            NO DISRESPECT ,I AM TIRED OF PEOPLE DISRESPECT,THE ORTHODOX,AND
            ROMAN CATHOLIC RITE BELIEVE IN SAINT S,I DO ST POPE JOHN PAUL WAS A TRUE
            POPE,YOU HAVE GOOD,AND BAD IN EVERY FAITH,LOOK AT THE PROTESTANT
            CHURCH,THE OTHER S THE MUSLIM S KILLING ,GOD PEOPLE,I AM SICK OF PEOPLE
            PUTTING,DOWN THE CATHOLIC FAITH,WHAT EVERY RITE EASTERN ORTHODOX,
            WESTERN RITE ORTHODOX,WHAT THE BAD PRIESTS DID IT WRONG I AM IN PAIN AND
            DEPRESSION IN BODY MIND OUR THIS ,THE POINT IS DEAR ARE GREAT PRIEST S
            AS A WESTERN RITE ORTHODOX CANON PRIEST I AM SORRY YOU FEEL THIS WAY,
            I LOVE YOU IN THE LORD.

            THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES OSB

      • Dan Cristancho

        You said, ‘Regarding the relics of saints, especially martyrs (about whom the
        Bible says, “Precious in the eyes of the Lord is the death of his holy
        ones” [Ps 116:15]).” You have misapplied that text. Precious in the eyes of the Lord is the death, NOT the dead bodies or his holy ones. God detests death and has no dealings with dead people. Haven’t you heard, It is written, “He is the God of the living, not the dead.” Mark 12:27. But every pagan religion in the world, from Buddhists to the ancient Egyptians all fawn over the dead. It is anything but Christian.

      • Dan Cristancho

        “Elisha died and was buried.” A very telling text. Notice nobody had dug up his bones and placed them in a jewel encrusted box of gold to adore and pray to. If you are looking for examples of relic veneration in the Old Testament, I would advise you to forget it, that kind of idolatry was detestable to a faithful, God fearing Israelite.

      • Rev NICHOLAS ACRES

        YES ‘VERY TRUE I HAVE A FEW SAINT S RELICS MY SELF,I LOVE WHAT YOU SAID.
        MY GOD ,VERY TRUE SOME PEOPLE,ABUSE IT. I MY SELF LOVE SAINT S
        OF GOD BUT OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST CAN ONLY SAVE ME,A SAINT
        IS A TOOL,BUT NOT GOD.

        THE VERY REVEREND CANON NICHOLAS ACRES

    • Stanley J. Harris

      Relics are a Jewish as well as ancient Catholic practice. In 2 Kings. 13; 20-21 a dead body was resurrected when it came in contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha. The Jews never displayed relics, but did indeed venerate the remains of their Righteous dead by praying at their tombs etc. The Christians took up the bones of Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna -who had been taught by the Apostles themselves. – after he had been burned alive and speared by the Romans. Eyewitness account of his death and subsequent annual services at his grave can be found in any bookstore; “His bones, more precious to us than silver and gold…”

      • Daniel Cristancho

        The Jews never displayed relics, but did indeed venerate the remains of their Righteous dead by praying at their tombs etc.

        I don’t know of any scriptural text supporting this statement. There are no examples of Israelites or Christians praying to or venerating the dead. Your example of the miracle that occurred ‘accidently’ in regards to the bones of Elisha, hardly condones relic worship. If you read the story, you will see that 1. the men were only out there to bury the dead man, they were not purposely seeking the bones of Elisha. 2. The dead man was dropped in a panic by the other men when they saw attackers coming their way, they had not planned to drop the man’s bones on Elisha’s in search of some miracle 3. The bible does not record anyone going back and praying at Elisha’s grave or digging up his bones to venerate or seek further miracles. Besides the above, God had very clearly stated that touching the remains of a dead person, body or bones, made you unclean. Israelites abstained from touching the dead unless it was family.

        • Stanley J. Harris

          Nevertheless, the man WAS resurrected. The Jew in Jesus’ day ALWAYS exhumed the dead after a year or so, cleaning the bones and depositing them in Ossuaries (to make room in the tomb for another corpse) And devotion to their HOLY dead, especially certain Rabbis, by regularly visiting their graves, leaving notes and prayer requests was a common practice as Archaeologists report, and is still practiced by certain forms of Judaism today, as well as by Catholic & Orthodox Christians who inherited this idea and evolved it into today’s custom..

          • Daniel Cristancho

            What the Jews who rejected Christ as Messiah did is not relevant to Christians today except as a warning to stay away from their blind condition. Judaism today is as corrupt as the Judaism of Christ’s day. What matters is ‘what does the bible say about the veneration of the dead’? The record is clear. Absolutely nothing. It is not a biblical teaching.

          • Stanley J. Harris

            Anti Semitic comments isn’t a good way to go.The Jews are the “First Chosen” of the Lord. “Sola Scriptura” (Bible ONLY) is a fallacy. In fact, the Bible tells us that the CHURCH is; “the pillar and ground of the truth”:(I Tim 3;15), NOT the Bible . The Bible also points us to Tradition (oral and written) as well as Scripture. (2. Thess. 2;15) The Scriptures are indeed the inspired word of God, but not the ONLY source of inspiration. .
            Be careful of what you dismiss as “detestable practices” , for you may, in fact be slamming the door in the face of Christ by your mistake.
            There were no Protestants in the early Church. no Baptists at Pentecost, No Evangelicals at the Council of Nicea, No Methodists who decided what books should be in the Canon of Scripture. in fact none existed until Martin Luther. (Who was also a Catholic Priest, albeit a confused one). The Bible was given to the world by the Catholic Church, and you imagine that we who wrote the Book do not now what it means? How ironic!
            I invite you to study also the writings of those who were taught by the Apostles themselves. So they understood the faith directly from them. We call them the “Apostolic Fathers” for that reason. Reverence for the dead was always a common thing.Prayers, washing, wrapping & burial etc. “Veneration” developed with the martyrdom of Polycarp, much loved elderly Bishop of Smyrna. A touching eye witness account was written by early Christians (Available in bookstores). Polycarp was taught by the Apostle John, and taught the same to his flock. They “Took up his bones, more precious to us than gold or silver and each year we assemble at his burial place to celebrate Eucharist”.
            This is my last post on this subject. Do read the Apostolic Fathers (Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome -they were taught by the Apostles- Tertullian, Justin Martyr and others You may find these extremely informative. Christian writings have always existed from earliest times and give a clear picture of the development of Christiani9ty down through the ages.For example; The first Liturgy (ceremony for the Eucharist) was written while the Apostles
            still lived in 85 A.D. The “Didache” and the “Apostolic Constitutions”.
            Check them out.
            There is no “Silent Period” between 99 AD and the Reformation; Writings abound.. The Church has always been alive and well – despite sinners in high places from time ti time. After 2,000 years the Catholic Church is still a “Clinic for sinners- not a rest home for saints”.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            I beg to differ. My comments were not Antisemitic. My religion, Seventh day Adventist, has more in common with the Jews of the bible than yours does. What I stated is fact, both historically and biblically correct.

          • Stanley J. Harris

            Adventists & Jehovah Witnesses stem from the same roots. False prophecies about the End of the World are part of your groups history. So you are hardly the one to speak of Church history, the Apostolic Fathers or who said or did what 2,000 years ago. The Catholic Church is historically the church founded by Christ himself. Your group has no connection to the authentic church, except where you follow Catholic doctrines and you DO follow some. The Bible as word of God, (Historically a Judaeo -Catholic series of writings), the Trinity (from the Council of Nicea -a Catholic Council). The Divinity of Christ, Salvation on Calvary (ALL Catholic 2,000 year old doctrines). But that is only part of the Christian Faith. The rest you have all wandered into odd teachings and revived old heresies. So you have no teaching authority whatsoever. You treat the teachings of Ellen White as on a par with Scripture which is nonsense, (She didn’t rise from the dead as you all claimed she would). Your “church’ is only about 200 years old. Way too late to even have a sensible understanding of the Faith. Your ideas come from misunderstanding our Holy book, which you have hijacked for yourselves while rejecting the rest of the truth. You even stupidly label the historical Successor. of the Apostles Peter as the Antichrist! How stupidly ignorant of the truth can you be? I don’t care to discuss any of this with you further, as you have no leg to stand on. It’s very true; “Some peoples minds are like concrete; all mixed up – and permanently set.!

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Adventists & Jehovah Witnesses stem from the same roots

            Who told you that? About the only thing we share with the Jehovah’s witnesses is ‘sleep death’. We have completely different doctrines. It’s interesting that you would state that the SDA ‘End of the World’ scenario is false. So far we have been spot on. For more than 150 centuries, we have preached that one day, the U.S. Apostate Protestants would unite with the Papacy and would summon all their powers of influence to pass a National Sunday law. You must be aware of the hostility that Protestants and Catholics have shared towards each other since the reformation. In America, that hostility has been most pronounced. And yet, today, we have almost all the major Protestant churches of America declaring the ‘protest’ over and desiring to be united with the Papacy, just as we declared the bible teaches in Revelation 13. What’s the next step? The National Sunday Law. We have been preaching it’s inevitable inception since the late part of the 19th century. Soon after that law is passed, the world will follow suit and there will arise persecution of commandments keepers that pale’s in comparison to the savage and demonic ‘Holy Inquisition’ of medieval Europe. This is what the bible has prophesied and it is the destiny of the nations. We shall see who’s end time scenario is false.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Your group has no connection to the authentic church, except where you follow Catholic doctrines and you DO follow some.

            What gives you the idea we accept some Catholic Doctrines merely because they are Catholic? We don’t. We only accept those doctrines that can be confirmed by scripture. There is a Trinity. Christ himself referred to ‘baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost’. Salvation through Christ, the Divinity of Christ, the bible as the Word of God, those are all bible doctrines clearly spelled out in scripture. The other teachings such as relics and prayers to the dead, purgatory, the immortality of the soul, Mary as Queen of heaven and dispenser of graces, the Mass, confessions to a priest, the infallibility of the Pope, eternal torments for the damned all are void of any scriptural support and thus rejected as abominable and doctrines of devils.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Your ideas come from misunderstanding our Holy book, which you have hijacked for yourselves while rejecting the rest of the truth. You even stupidly label the historical Successor. of the Apostles Peter as the Antichrist!

            I find that you are the ones that misunderstand the Holy Book, for it is rarely used to support most of your doctrines. Very little scripture is used to uphold ‘the sinless nature of Mary’ because it is not a bible teaching. Instead you must seek support on the husks of church tradition and church father writings. By the way, we are not the only ones to call the so called ‘successors of Peter’, Antichrist. Every reformer from Zwingli to Luther, all once devout Catholics, I might add, have described the pope with the title of ‘Antichrist’, ‘man of sin’ and ‘little horn of Daniel’. We’re in good Protestant company.

          • cradlecatholic

            I think most of us are having trouble listening to you quote scripture and listen to nothing else because, at least the Catholic church, teaches that our faith has three components, Scripture, the Magisterium, and tradition. The church has changed, and we embrace that. (It is now acceptable to cremate the dead, women can wear skirts and many other changes.) Many of these changes came about when the church discovered more about the world around it (changing its opinion about evolution of humans and the big bang).

            Sorry if what I’ve written doesn’t agree with other branches of Christianity, I was just speaking about what I know- the Catholic church’s beliefs.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            at least the Catholic church, teaches that our faith has three components, Scripture, the Magisterium, and tradition.

            I understand where you’re coming from, but the bible never puts these three on the same level. By the way, neither does the Catholic church, otherwise they would have no trouble canonizing the other two. But they’ve only canonized the scriptures, placing them on a level way above tradition and the Magisterium. Scripture is equal to the word of God, the others are not. Therefore, scripture has the last word. If it were just a matter of Catholics leading Catholics, I would not respond to this page, but the Pope has taken the title of Shepherd over ALL OTHER CHRISTIAN denominations and religions. Canon law stipulates that the Supreme Pontiff is not only over all religions but over all secular heads of state. That means he aims to impose his beliefs on the world, whether they like it or not. The Papacy does not respect freedom of religion or the conscience. So I speak out against it’s errors.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            So you have no teaching authority whatsoever. You treat the teachings of Ellen White as on a par with Scripture which is nonsense, (She didn’t rise from the dead as you all claimed she would).

            Where in the world did you get the idea Ellen White would ‘rise from the dead’? The only time we know that Ellen White will rise from the dead is at the last day at Christ’s coming, when all the dead in Christ shall rise from the grave. And again, you have been misinformed. We do not place Ellen White on a par with scripture. Ellen White is not an addition to the bible. Her writings are not scripture.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            You’re correct. The church is the pillar and ground of the truth but it IS NOT equal to truth. ONLY THE WORD OF GOD is equal with truth. “Thy word is truth”. The church ceases to be the pillar of truth when it ceases to follow scripture. The Roman church fails here.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            The Roman church did not give the scriptures to the world. That is a papist lie. She merely compiled them. The Jews gave us the “oracles of God for ‘salvation is of the Jews’, not the Roman Pontiff.

          • Daniel Cristancho

            Why in the world would I need to study the writings of those who studied under the Apostles when I can study what the Apostles actually said in Scripture? The Church fathers are not “God breathed, Holy Spirit authored’ scripture. They lack authority and are subject to scripture. Where they agree with the Bible, I agree but where they contradict, add or delete from scripture, I will go with scripture every time.

        • Dara Crawley

          I find this whole discussion fascinating. Having read the comments I think both sides have interesting points. I thought I would add two cents.

          I think that it helps to remember that much of the bible translations can be problematic as well as the fact that the scripture isn’t something given from god but creates from men who embraces the holy spirit. Historically the bible today may not be the whole book. There have been many debates and rivalries surrounding what is or is not in the bible. To say that scripture is the only path and all else is wrong is understandable, but depends on how you read the text. The literal text forbids mixed fabrics and essentially approves some very horrific acts that people rarely focus on.
          It is worth considering that what we have in this discussion is different readings associated with the Bible. Nothing says that the living apostles gave their relics power. That is as false as suggesting that the bible directly states relics are holy.

          But more soI think there is a blatant disregard for what is important about the saints and their relics. They are not just idoltry . They are manifestations of examples for how the faithful should live not only in service to god but in service to human virtues. They are inspirations and are granted the rights and dressings of someone honored. They are symbols of gods love throughout history that can show that in suffering there should be faith. They are shown and maintained with love. Plenty of cultures have had such practices because they connect us to faith in a way that goes beyond scripture. Much of scripture is beautiful but there is more to living than biblical text

          • Daniel Cristancho

            They are inspirations and are granted the rights and dressings of someone honored.

            The bible tells us that we are to take the stories of scripture to lead and encourage us to lead pious lives. A religion that requires objects or saints to ‘connect’ us with God and show us what it means to live a Christian life, is a faithless religion that has flesh as its arm of strength. It is by faith that man is justified and accepted into Christ’s kingdom, not by venerating the dead, no matter how pious their lives were.

          • Stephen Garland

            Dan, do you realise that God is timeless? You are trying to understand God with a pathetic human mind and linear thinking. A prayer for the dead can be applied by God at any point in time as God may choose. These prayers represent love of thy neighbour. (Catholics try not to limit God as much as Protestants e.g. we believe that He has absolutely no problem transfiguring the bread into His actual body and blood, as the Eucharist, not just as a symbol) (He did say ‘this is my body’!)

            The Holy Spirt does guide us as you indicate, but God also delivers delusion to the prideful. That is why we need interpretation and guidance by the Catholic Church (what ever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven) and why sola scriptura is so wrong. God gives us many opportunities to be humble and obedient, Luther chose to rebel (Jesus said do what they say not what they do!)

            God loved the saints because they worshipped Him. Our veneration of them shows how much we want to emulate their lives and worship God. With humility we ask the saints to present our prayers to God and this is especially so for Mary. God told us to honour our human father and mother. Jesus is true God and true man and therefore loves and honours his mother. God loves humans and receives great pleasure when we freely worship him. He appreciates it when we acknowledge his great plan and honour his saints especially Mary. God also values our capacity to humbly submit to the dogmas and guidance of the catholic church and respect the pope. The protestant breakaways were more about pride, power, self interest and nationalism than honouring God. The Catholic Church has many prideful and sinful clergy and has many schisms and is relentlessly attacked by satan, but the Church of Jesus shall prevail.

      • Daniel Cristancho

        The Christians took up the bones of Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna -who had been taught by the Apostles themselves. – after he had been burned alive and speared by the Romans

        Yes, they probably had been taught by the Apostles, but there is no record in scripture that the Apostles ever, ever endorsed pr taught the veneration of the dead or relics. Their practices were in line with the pagan religions of the day, not with Christian biblical teaching.

        • Stanley J. Harris

          The pagans had a horror and terror of the dead, and certainly had no veneration of relics of them, that’s why they found Christianity repulsive. so your comment is inaccurate. Obviously, not ALL of the Apostles teachings were recorded in Scripture, but were handed down by word of mouth or by letters. There was no New Testament as we know it until 400 years later. The early Christians venerated their Martyrs’ relics as “Pre-Resurrection” objects. The Spirit of God had acted through their living bodies, thus it was felt that a vestige of that Spirit remained after death. Not very Protestant, but of course as John Henry Newman once put it. “To be truly steeped in history is to no longer be Protestant”. Christ promised His Church would be established on Peter; “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” Either Jesus was a liar, and hell DID corrupt the Church, or practices of the early Church are valid. and proper. You can’t have it both ways. And veneration of Martyrs is certainly a historical Christian practice of the early Church. Read the inscriptions in the 1st. Cent. Catacombs in Rome, for example……….

          • Daniel Cristancho

            You don’t know pagans very well.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneration_of_the_dead

            Witchcraft and Satanism also have an obsession with the dead. Contrary to your opinion, pagans would have found Christianity repulsive because of Christ, not because of Christianity’s so called ‘obsession’ with the dead, which according to scripture, is a myth. There are no instructions, teachings or examples anywhere in the New Testament of anybody, anywhere venerating dead bodies. Only the Roman church and its offshoots practice such detestable things.

  • Most people can’t tell hollywood from the people in these crypts/sarcophagi

    • Jessica Peters

      Is that Cryptodonna?

  • giovani o k

    The incorruptibility of the bodies of some saints is an extraordinary phenomenon that cannot be explained on materialistic grounds.

  • disqus_VTw9qj0nnz,

    The saints we visited certainly weren’t Kodak-ready, and oftimes a wax mask is used because the ancient visage would be a bit too grotesque for most visitors but – to be able to stand before the saints and walk where they lived and served is awe-inspiring.

  • James Martin

    This was really interesting. I just wanted to see more. Bucket list additions.

  • Katlyn Micallef

    Very interesting piece, answered all of my questions and don’t think your puns went
    unnoticed!

  • Dundee

    Mummification, by nature or the hand of man, does nothing to change the stillness of death. Whether a partial or full likeness of the deceased is viewed months or years following death, the fact of death is indisputable. The Supreme Creator of all life is also the claimant in death.
    Love for humanity, by the Creator of life is omnipotent unless at the end of mortal existence, a choice is made not to love and obey the Father. Irrevocable and eternal separation will result.
    Should the corpse of a deceased show signs of incorruptibility and, that person having lived a god fearing and exemplary life as a practicing Catholic, it’s understandable the Church would conduct examinations to discover the source behind a state of full or partial preservation. If discovery identify’s a mystery
    defying explanation, it will intensify the investigation process in an effort to discover whether there is a presence of divine intervention.

  • William Williams

    Bury these bodies in the ground where they belong…what a bunch of necro-worshippers

  • Black Water

    While always a fascinating subject similar to the so-called stigmatists Padre Pio and Therese Neumann, it’s one that begins to unravel under scientific skeptical inquiry and is really nothing but a con to keep some ecclesiastical mystery alive and both old and newcomers faithful to the faith and monetary contributions continuing to come in. Meaning money and survival is the name of the game.

    Such as the farce of Self-Realization Fellowship (SRF) and of Yogananda’s supposed incorrupt body. A body that was actually immediately embalmed, sealed in a near vacuum with a heavy glass lid, and whose full mortician’s report which described that decomposition had begun with a brown spot on his nose being hidden from the devotees. And with their master gone via his supposed and unproven mahasamadhi (yogi’s final conscious exit from the body), the remaining SRF principals had to seize the opportunity to manufacture the incorruptible miracle of the foremost master that would serve as a continued source of joiners and of course $$$$ into the organization. Of course, since all of the senior SRF successors had to emulate their master upon their deaths, SRF stated that they’ve all supposedly had their unproven mahasamadhi’s as well but only their flagship founder Yogananda’s body was incorrupt. As an SRF practitioner for decades, it was hard learning the truth and led to deeper investigation of the overall phenomenon as ultimately nothing but snake oil.